It's bound to happen: First Juyo Gendaito Smith?

[SwordGuyJoe]

Hello All,

I was wondering, in you humble opinion, who you think will be the first gendai sword to be awarded Juyo papers - unless I am wrong, but I am pretty sure it hasn't happened yet. Names that pop to mind for me are Okimasa, Shigetsugu, and Akihira.

 

What do you think?

[Takahashi]

Well, I would think Takahashi Sadatsugus blades might have a good chance to get awarded with a Juyo paper first.

You rarely see one for sale nowadays. Just my five cents.

Cheers,

[Marius]

Opening a can of worms, are we.

[rkg]

Gassan Sadakatsu..

[Marius]

some Mukansa smth with good connections.

[cabowen]

some Mukansa smth with good connections.

 

You know well how this works!

 

My guess is Gassan Sadakatsu. Quality smith with many blades for famous people, well connected, lineage, close association through his son and grandson with the NBTHK....what more do you need???

[SwordGuyJoe]

Seems well connected, but of the other gendaito smiths, is Sadakatsu really "the best"? I quote it because I feel like the first one will be something of a message sender. I know it doesn't work like that, but I guess I feel like it should. Probably biased as I have never really liked gassan blades personally. Big name vs. big quality vs. big politics...

 

[cabowen]

I think asking "who is best?" and "who will have the first Juto?" are two different questions...

 

Certainly there are smiths as good (and maybe better) than the Gassan smiths (all three modern Gassans) but there are other factors at play as well (besides talent....)

 

I share your opinion of Gassan blades. I have seen some very nice ones but few have done much for me.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Agreed that "fair" vs. "reality" are not equal here. So if the best - understanding there is a personal preference skew ther - swordsmith would be awarded the first Juyo, who would that be?

[cabowen]

I don't think there is a "best" any more than there is a "most" beautiful women....At the top level, there are several smiths who have made blades worthy of the Juto classification in the future. It is pretty much impossible to do any more than guess at which may be the first. As I said, I think Gassan Sadakatsu has the best shot, but certainly Horii Toshihide and Kasama Shigetsugu are highly possible, as is Kurihara Akihide....Surely Tsukamoto Okimasa, Kajiyama Yasunori, and a dozen or so others will have blades that make Juyo, if there is such a thing, down the road...

 

I have long said that one can own the juyo of tomorrow, today, at a fraction of the cost, by collecting at the high end of the gendai era.

[SwordGuyJoe]

What about Shibata Ka?

[lonely panet]

what about kuniie yoshihara?? trained son good smiths like ono yoshimitsu, and his two sons and all are makansa ranked the think.

 

kotani yasunori but only because I have one

 

regards hamish

[Jean]

Just a question: Do passed away smiths as Sumitane have obtained juto blades and are these National Treasures in first line to have Juto blades when passed away?

[Pete Klein]

Jean -- that was the first thing I tought of.

[Eric Santucci]

I've always thought we will see a Gassan Sadakatsu piece reach Juyo first. Over the last several years I've seen many of his works go Tokobetsu Hozon. In fact, the first time I saw such a thing about 3 or 4 years ago I did a double take and wondered if the info was misprinted, but it was in fact accurate. And since that time, I have seen at least two other Sadakatsu katanas reach TH.

 

In my opinion, some of his works are impressive, some are great, and others are so-so. Perhaps we can chalk that up to the individuality of the smith producing multiple works over his career or the possible daimei and daisaku works done by his students during the 1930s and early 40s before his passing in '43. Quality may be based on the individual works that resulted from those specific cases as well.

 

But make no mistake, as others noted in this thread, there are plenty of excellent gendai smiths out (many of which are sorely underrated) that have achieved the same or better results and it will be exciting to see what the future holds for many of them.

[cabowen]

Shibata Ka was basically self trained and while he managed to make a very nice sword, his sugata is his weak point. I wouldn't place him at the top of the list but I know of a certain 29" Ka I use to own that would possibly be a candidate some day.

 

Yoshihara Kuniie (shodai) made many swords and I have seen some that are truly wonderful. Frequently though, in his work, you see a hamon that is higher on one side of the blade than the other. When he gets its all right, his blades are as nice as any other from the period. I would think there will be juyo Kuniie in the future.

 

Kotani Yasunori also made many blades. I have one done outside the Yasukuni forge in the rai style that is wonderful. I had the extreme luck of showing it to Kotani san at his home and he lit up like a Christmas tree when he saw it. He said he made few like that one and was clearly very pleased with it. While he made some beautiful swords, most have the war association as they were made for military order. I can't help but think this may stand in the way of these blades ever making Juyo, at least for a really looong time....

 

The fact that there are already a few Sadakatsu blades that have made Tokubetsu Hozon is a sign that the NBTHK has tipped their hand a bit. I was in denial when I first heard this and also did a double take when I first saw a TH kanteisho for one. There may be other gendaito of the period with TH kantei sho, but I have not seen nor heard of any.

 

Sadakatsu had many students and I know for a fact, having been told repeatedly by one of them, that a few students made much of his later work. That is perhaps one reason for the variation seen.

 

I wouldn't assume that a former Ningen Kokuho (Takahashi Sadatsugu, Miyairi Akihira, Sumitani Masamine, etc.) will be the first to reach Juto, but it is a reasonable bet. There are a lot of factors at play so it is, as I said, just a guessing game. No doubt those that were Ningen Kokuho will have Juto at some point.

[seattle1]

Hello All:

I think it would be interesting to ask the question "by what criteria might the next smith post Gassan Sadakazu be awarded Juyo status by the NBTHK?" My Juyo Index is a little out of date, being published in 1999, but at that time he had one, a wakizashi made in 1908, two years after receiving Ningen Kokuho status from Emperor Meiji, and he may have received others Juyo since.

Needless to say one must be dead to receive a Juyo designation for one of one's blades, though interestingly that general rule is sometimes violated by the NBTHK, probably in error. Second I would think that the next such person will probably have to be not too far in time from Sadakazu. The not too discontinuous flow of time for such a designation would seem to be fitting, and the NBTHK exhibits a keen awareness of that in many ways. The unique feature that dominated the lives and careers of smiths working just before and after Sadakazu was of course the third Haitorei edict of 1876. Few smiths continued, Sadakazu is perhaps the best known. He worked before and after the edict, not passing on until 1918.

His contemporary, Miyamoto Kanenori, the only other Ningen Kokuho prior to the post-WWII era, was also a superb smith, though perhaps less even in quality, and he worked both before and after the edict. Hayama Enshin was another "before and after" smith of real quality. Chris Bowen would be better informed than I am of other contemporary candidates in addition to Kanenori and Enshin, but they are both excellent.

Moving on somewhat in time would be Horii Taneaki, Sakurai Masatsugu, Watanable Kanenaga, Yokoyama Sukekane, Gassan Sadakatsu and Kasama Shigetsugu. There were a number of fine smiths working during the war years, though by then the stretch of time would be substantial. Miyaguchi Yasuhiro, Kajiyama Yasunori and Kotani Yasunori, all working at the Yasukuni Jinja come to mind, as does the excellent Yoshihara Kuniiye, grandfather of the contemporary Yoshihara brothers.

Tsukamoto Okimasa has been mentioned, though more realistically in that he died so young at age 43 his unrealized promise seems mentioned as much as the quality of the blades he actually made. When we go further into the so called shinsakuto of today, I believe they would all be out of the question. Not only are some of the best still living, but in contrast to the above, their output are Nihonto in every sense but intended use, always the acid test.

Finally I wonder if designations since Sadakazu's have not already been made in everything but name and the same degree of recognition? I have in mind the Yushu saku and Sai Yushu saku for the NTHK when under the leadership of Yoshikawa Koen sensei. Sensei stressed quality and condtion above all, including the historical role treasured by the NBTHK. At least the following, perhaps more, post-Sadakazu smiths have been awarded Yushu status:Horii Hideaki, d. 1943, Yoshihara Kuniiye, d. 1970, Tsukamoto Okimasa, and, Hayama Enshin, d. 1920 at age 75. Depending how one spins the argument, they could all be seen as reasonable Juyo candidates pre-vetted.

Arnold F.

[cabowen]

Finally I wonder if designations since Sadakazu's have not already been made in everything but name and the same degree of recognition? I have in mind the Yushu saku and Sai Yushu saku for the NTHK when under the leadership of Yoshikawa Koen sensei. Sensei stressed quality and condtion above all, including the historical role treasured by the NBTHK. At least the following, perhaps more, post-Sadakazu smiths have been awarded Yushu status:Horii Hideaki, d. 1943, Yoshihara Kuniiye, d. 1970, Tsukamoto Okimasa, and, Hayama Enshin, d. 1920 at age 75. Depending how one spins the argument, they could all be seen as reasonable Juyo candidates pre-vetted.

Arnold F.

 

 

I have seen all of the blades above that were awarded Yushu Saku by the NTHK, with perhaps the exception of the Enshin (though I may simply not remember it)....They are all excellent blades but I have to wonder if there might not be many more rated Yushu if people simply took the time and trouble to submit them???

 

By the way, the Okimasa is a post war blade. The only one I believe to have been awarded Yushu. He was a fantastic smith and despite his early death left many excellent swords. The rumor is he also, due to post war poverty, left many excellent fakes as well....

[w.y.chan]

I've posted this on Chris B forum a few weeks ago and it has since been sold for 2.8 million yen

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2013/1310_1080syousai.htm

 

If Shinzo Abe or another prominent right wing politician became NBTHK chairman in the future that sword may have an improve chance of getting Juyo.

[cabowen]

Rather atypical work for Kasama....

[w.y.chan]

A believe a smith with seniority and made swords for important people will stand the greatest chance of making Juyo. Sadakatsu, Shigetsugu, Horii are the likely candidates, even Kurihara Akihide.

Smith such as Akimoto Akitomo don't get as much mention amongst senior WW2 smiths but I bet he is just as good as the best.

 

On a side note did Gassan Sadakatsu in WW2 tried to resist machinery but eventually relented?

[cabowen]

There were many very good smiths working in the early Showa era who are basically unknown in the mainstream. Every so often we see a really well made blade by a ww2 era smith who has barely a mention in the usual sources. The often heard advice to learn to recognize quality (rather than rely on name recognition) has never been truer...Quite a few of the blades in my collection are by smiths most have never heard of....There are still gems to be found...

[w.y.chan]

Rather atypical work for Kasama....

 

Is this an old original or low grade polish, none of the photos on that site is great. Chris what do you think?

[cabowen]

It's in old polish and probably not the best it could be.

[seattle1]

Hello:

This discussion of Juyo for a gendai smith started in May and was continued today by a post from Mr. Chan. I thought I had better reread it all and in so doing I discovered an embarrassing error in my earlier post which I must correct. I had said that one must be dead to receive a Juyo designation and that that rule is sometimes violated by the NBTHK. Perhaps the error was so obviously wrong that nobody commented, anyway what I meant to say is that a smith must be deceased to receive any paper. I am sure that no Juyo would be awarded were that not so, but living smiths - at least one - was awarded an NBTHK paper while still living. I don't think that is done as a rule; perhaps Chris Bowen could confirm or correct.

That smith is Kotani Yasunori who has been mentioned several times in this thread. He was Kotani Kenzo, nephew of Kajiyama Yasunori and cousin of Kajiyama Yasutoshi. He was born in Hiroshima, Meiji 42 and passed away in Kure City, Hiroshima Prefecture, March 1, 2003. He initially made blades signed Kenzo and became Kotani Yasunori when receiving the 4th certificate as a smith at the Yasukuni Jinja, July 1, 1935. He received that name from the Minister of War, Hayashi Senjuro, and he made about 1,600 at the Jinja. The paper awarded was issued as a Hozon Token, #305763, Showa 61 (1986). I would have thought the Kenzo name would be known to the NBTHK. I believe Chris Bowen has had the pleasure of becoming acquainted with Yasunori while living in Japan.

Arnold F.

[cabowen]

Arnold is quite right that the NBTHK policy is to only award kantei sho to smiths who are deceased, and usually they require a certain period of time thereafter to pass as well. It is known, however, that they occasionally have made a mistake and awarded kantei sho to a blade made by a still living smith. I have seen this several times, including as Arnold has mentioned, kantei sho awarded to Kotani Yasunori san's blades while he was still alive. It is rare but it has indeed happened with a few WWII era smiths. Blades made by Kotani san were signed Kenzo (only a few), Yasunori, and Takenori (made privately outside the shrine). I am not too surprised that the NBTHK would have not known that Kenzo was an early mei of Kotani san's as it is very rare and as I have said before, the NBTHK, in the past, was not really well studied on WWII era smiths.

[Stephen]

may we have the kanji for Kenzo?

[cabowen]

憲三

[Stephen]

Chris san Hai domo!

[cabowen]

Don't touch my mustache....