Kamon everybody!

[Bugyotsuji]

Can anyone shed some light on this silver etched Mon? I have tried everything, well, almost everything, but nothing has yet led to the big enlightenment. I have two competing theories which I threw out on this forum previously, but no proof of either. There may indeed be a third as yet unknown candidate. Thanking you in advance!

 

I think the leaves round about are Kashiwa, as Mittsu-Oi-Kashiwa, or Mittsu-Oi-Kake-gashiwa. I am open to them being some other leaf.

 

The central cross would seem to be Kutsuwa, or Maru-ni-Juji, (Ju no ji) of Satsuma.

 

They are on a gun which was probably made in around 1840, although the Mon could have been added later in Bakumatsu.

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning Piers,

 

Try Mitsu Oi Sugi

 

Cheers

[Bugyotsuji]

It doesn't seem to go anywhere at first try. Are you saying this with some deeper knowledge or just throwing something into the pot Malcolm? :lol:

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Piers

 

No secret knowledge, just a condiment......

 

http://www.tozandoshop.com/v/vspfiles/kamon/plant1.html

 

about half way down the page.

 

Cheers

[Bugyotsuji]

OK Malcolm, thanks for the offering. I have actually been there and tried the various links Satsuma, Shimazu, Yamauchi, Ju moji, Kutsuwa, (replacing Kashiwa with Sugi), etc., but nothing fresh came up. Agreed they look similar, but the leaf veins are slightly different. I appreciate the feedback!

 

There seems to have been a fashion in the Bakumatsu for young and up-coming samurai to create new combination Kamon for themselves. Perhaps of this time?

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, never one normally to make a real effort in life, I have just taken a further step in the search and e-mailed the Chairman of the Nihon Kamon Kenkyu Kai, 日本家紋研究会会長 Mr Hitoshi Takasawa in my best Japanese. Will he think it is a Mamori, or a Kamon, and if so what? It will be interesting to see if and how he replies. Will update as and when. Thanks for looking.

[Baka Gaijin]

Excellent Piers,

 

Just did a bit of searching and found their site which looks to have some interesting information and resources.

 

http://www.nihonkamon.com/

 

Some excellent links in there also

 

Cheers

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, he sent me a reply last night which is good going.

 

I had asked him if it should be described as Mittsu-oi-Kashiwa ni Kutsuwa and he wrote, "this Kamon is Mittsu-oi-Kashiwa ni Kutsuwa". From this I gather that it is a Kamon and not a Mamori, in his opinion. It is also clear that he thinks this is the correct name for it, although he did not say whether such a Kamon exists anywhere or is indeed illustrated or not in one of their society's interesting-looking publications.

 

He wrote some more opinion about how he thinks it is not Daimyo class and would have been the Mon of a "Kashin" 家臣 vassal of a Daimyo. I read this out to a friend today who knows a lot about things old and ancient and he disagreed. So I have written back to say thank you politely, asked him to give me time to think about what he said, and told him a little more about the gun. If Mr Takasawa is still interested we can maybe narrow the gap. If not, well, we live to fight another day.

 

By way of update.

[Bugyotsuji]

Late last night a second reply came. It was shorter this time, saying that sadly it was an unknown Mon not shown in any of their Kamon books. What he can say however, is that it is not the Mon of any Daimyo class of person that he has ever seen and therefore he imagines that it would be difficult to discover the owner through the Mon alone. I am grateful for his matter-of-fact and timely replies and will tell him so. Many thanks Mr Takasawa!

 

Personally I have another theory bubbling up... :|

[John A Stuart]

Well in later days mon were created by the bushel, every family regardless of rank wanted one. This existed earlier to a lesser degree even with regulations against it. Even the site you posted, Piers, has how to create your own. Looking forward to hear what is bubbling up with your toil and trouble. John

[Bugyotsuji]

John, yes that is just what my friend was saying. Today people still continue to come up with new variant Mon for themselves. Even something as seemingly standardized as the cross or the Kutsuwa for example came in an infinite number of refinements, as if no-one wanted to be quite the same as anyone else. "How many examples of the Tokugawa Aoi Mon do you think there are?" he asked me. "Plenty", I answered, attempting to dodge the issue, and he exclaimed, "Exactly! Look at the veins and the curls of the stems and you'll see there are endless variations."

 

What is bubbling up regards the combination again of the two brothers and their younger sister from Satsuma. Their mother was an Ikeda princess from Tottori with Tokugawa, Date and Oda blood, who had married the 27th Lord Shimazu. In Bunsei 12 (1829) the younger brother stepped in to continue the heirless Ikeda line of Bizen/Okayama as 7th Lord, Ikeda Naritoshi. Their younger sister married the Lord Yamanouchi in Shikoku and had a boy child around 1831. The older brother became the famous 29th Shimazu Lord Nariakira.

 

Now with the Western naval threat approaching, the Okayama Hanshu Clan Chief Naritoshi ordered some Bizen smiths to switch to gun making, and he put Yokoyama Tatsuemon Sukenobu (the maker of this gun) in charge. 'Ichinin Buchi' (? need to check the appellation), he was designated. Sadly Naritoshi of Okayama was not long for this world and he died in Tenpo 13, 1842 at the age of 32. Other known guns made by this smith Sukenobu are dated around this time.

 

1. Were the three Kashiwa leaves meant as special protection against illness for the Shimazu line ie, Ikeda Naritoshi?

2. Were they a symbol of the sharpshooter Kashiwagi (ie Mr Oaktree) who in shooting and wounding Ii Naomasa had allowed the remaining Shimazu troops and their Lord to flee from Sekigahara back to Kyushu? Shimazu Nariakira was a good shot, it is said. Oak leaves having within the Shimazu family story a legendary symbolic protection, perhaps even more so for a potential sharp shooter?

3. Or were the the three Kashiwa leaves of Tosa drawn around the Kutsuwa cross to protect the younger sister and her Shimazu offspring there?