Is there such a thing as a Juyo polish?

[peterqu]

In my early years of collecting I was advised by a longtime collector that if I sent a sword for polish I should always ask for a Juyo polish.I was somewhat skeptical and having read somewhere that the polisher knows best what to do I assumed that a highly regarded polisher would always always use his best endeavours to achieve the optimum result.Fast forward and with a number of polishes behind me I now realize that superior polishers can do many things in a polish and in repairs and that sometimes direction is required albeit in a tactful manner if the removal of a hakabore or the closure of an opening is required.I know that a certain Western polisher is renowned for concentrating his efforts on the preparation of blades for Juyo shinsa so the question is whether a normal polish will suffice for Juyo shinsa or is extra attention required ?Regards,

[paulb]

Peter,

I think the bottom line is that a sword should be presented in the best possible condition to enable the panel to see the detail. I dont think there is sucha thing as a specific "Juyo" polish it just needs to be the best achievable to show the blade off to good effect.

[cabowen]

I think "Juyo polish" is a Western term that developed from instructions received from the NBTHK that a sword submitted for Juyo shinsa should be in a high quality polish befitting a Juyo caliber sword. I know of instances when a sword in excellent, fresh polish was submitted for Juyo and failed. When the owner asked why, it was suggested that perhaps if the sword was repolished, perhaps by Mr. X or Mr. Y, it might have a chance of passing next time....hmmmmm

 

I think most polishers simply do their best. Some are better than others thus it is always economically savvy to match the level of the blade with the rank/cost of the polisher. It bears keeping in mind that sometimes a polisher without the big name and high price is every bit as good as one with a big name and high price.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

We must keep in mind that swords are also polished by students.

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

We must keep in mind that swords are also polished by students.

 

That is the reality of big name polishing studios but it is becoming much less common today for polishers (and smiths) to have live in students.

[Pete Klein]

OK -- here's my take on it. A 'Juyo' polish would be one of highest endeavor accomplished by someone with proper knowledge and ability to allow the blade to be seen as representative of it's individual heritage.

[Brian]

Yep. I don't for one second believe that all qualified polishers always polish to the very best of their ability. In an ideal world, yes. But reality means there is a queue of swords waiting, and customers asking where is their sword. The number of sword shops able to offer a "touch up polish" or to renew the polish for a small fee attests to this. It is naive to think that all the polishers, even the top ones, give every sword the same amount of care.

They know that to attain Juyo status, a sword has to show representative features of the smith. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that a "Juyo polish" gives extra care in highlighting these traits. Or is done by the togishi himself, and nothing done by any students or farmed out to other polishers.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

A true shokunin always does his best. He has pride in his work. Those that don't I won't bother with.

[Guido]

I agree with Chris: the term "Jûyô polish" is a Western invention, a Japanese craftsman will allways deliver the best result he's capable of. Some polishers will even refuse to do a "touch-up polish", being of the opinion that every sword should be properly polished.

 

If the details of the blade are clearly visible, even a sword in old polish will pass Jûyô. If the Jûyô candidate needs a polish to bring out its features, the NBTHK might recommend a certain polisher. For instance, I know a high ranking polisher who does a great job on every blade, but likes Shintô the best; there is another one who puts some extra effort into polishing Sôshû blades. In other words, it's - like always - prudent to let the man do the job who's best suited to do it. I'm not aware of any case in which the NBTHK refused Jûyô because it wasn't polished by a certain Togishi.

[raiden]

I agree with Guido, as we have always have had great luck in giving the certain type of blade to a specific polisher. Some polishers do Koto Bizen better than others (in my opinion), and some do Soshu den better. We also use a certain polisher for Shinto-Shinshinto pieces, and are never disappointed with any results. I believe because of this, as well as the type of blades that we have purchased is the reason for having a Juyo sword pass about 11 of the last 12 Juyo shinsa (the one year missed the sword wasn't finished in time). For me the results speak for themselves, just as I am having my newest acquisition polished by my favorite Mukansa polisher who does Soshu Koto ( I hope it will do well this year!). But as far as I know, in Japan, there is no term known as a "Juyo polish", just a great polish by great people.

[Pete Klein]

Here's the rub...

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/others/restoration

[cabowen]

What that shows is there are polishers working at different rates, that is no surprise.

 

The nugui-naoshi offering shows that where these is a demand, someone will step forward.

 

I asked my polisher once if he would offer a "touch up polish" and he said no. When I asked why not, he explained as follows:

 

"The last polish many blades received was done during the war years. Frequently the foundation polish isn't the best. If I did a touch up polish, my name will be attached to that sword. People may not understand that all I did was the touch up, and when they see the poorly done foundation polish, they will assume that is my fault and think poorly of my work."

[Pete Klein]

Well, what it shows by utilizing descriptives of differing ranks (levels) corresponding to the nomenclature of the field (especially Mukansa) is what ammounts to: good, better, best. Now, this is a Japanese dealer utilizing Japanese polishers saying, we offer three different levels of quality of polish, ergo the concept of 'Juyo' level can be inferred. The reality of this, as in any field is that even if 'best endeavor' is guaranteed (which of course it cannot be), there still exists differing levels of capability, so that these 'ranks' could connote levels of accomplishment yielding levels of quality.

[Jorgensen]

That makes pretty good sense!

[cabowen]

Well, what it shows by utilizing descriptives of differing ranks (levels) corresponding to the nomenclature of the field (especially Mukansa) is what ammounts to: good, better, best. Now, this is a Japanese dealer utilizing Japanese polishers saying, we offer three different levels of quality of polish, ergo the concept of 'Juyo' level can be inferred. The reality of this, as in any field is that even if 'best endeavor' is guaranteed (which of course it cannot be), there still exists differing levels of capability, so that these 'ranks' would connote levels of accomplishment yielding levels of quality.

 

 

I think this is what I meant to say above when I made this comment:

 

"I think most polishers simply do their best. Some are better than others thus it is always economically savvy to match the level of the blade with the rank/cost of the polisher. It bears keeping in mind that sometimes a polisher without the big name and high price is every bit as good as one with a big name and high price."

 

Undoubtedly there are polishers at different levels of skill and experience, and one can usually consider the price paid as a proxy for the quality of the work, though again, not always. Most associate "juyo" with top quality and thus, it I would think most would likewise assume that a "juyo polish" was a top quality polish.

[Pete Klein]

And of course this is why it is most important to have someone eminently qualified to act as broker between the owner and the polisher.

[raiden]

I believe that if you have a very top quality or important sword, it is much safer to give your blade to someone such as Fujishiro sensei. I never worry if i use him, or one of his Fathers top students. Mr. Usuki does an excellent polish as well, especially on Koto blades. I agree that lower level polishers can do a great job as well, but I like to go with consistyency and experience when it comes to my own blades. I have tried many different polishers as they all need support, especiallt these days. In fact I just gave a blade to Mr. Usuki's student (an unsigned Keicho shinto wakizashi) and it came out very nice. However, I had Mr. Usuki polish my Ichimonji.......that came out fantastic! I think blades that have nice utsuri need an experienced polisher to show all of their characteristics properly. BTW I believe that on Aoi-Art, Mr. Tsuruta does the touch up himself, not a trained polisher, but this is what i remember before, Im not sure who does it now.

[raiden]

oh forgive my typos, had a long night with one of the kids... I forgot to mention, I recently gave a shinto wakizashi by Chikuzen Moritsugu that had nice utsuri to Mr. Morii for polish. As far as I am concerned, he is one of the most talented young polishers. His polish (which I requested in sashikomi) came out fantatstic! When the blade returns, I will post some pics. I think he will have a very nice future, and I encourage anyone to study his polish if you might want one done in the future. However, please note that no matter how great the polisher is, sometimes the blades aren't the quality that often the owner hopes....so don't be so quick to blame the polisher if your blade didn't come out a diamond, if it wasn't that quality to begin with. The "Juyo" polish can't turn a tired blade into a Kamakura Juto.

[cabowen]

oh forgive my typos, had a long night with one of the kids... I forgot to mention, I recently gave a shinto wakizashi by Chikuzen Moritsugu that had nice utsuri to Mr. Morii for polish. As far as I am concerned, he is one of the most talented young polishers. His polish (which I requested in sashikomi) came out fantatstic! When the blade returns, I will post some pics. I think he will have a very nice future, and I encourage anyone to study his polish if you might want one done in the future. However, please note that no matter how great the polisher is, sometimes the blades aren't the quality that often the owner hopes....so don't be so quick to blame the polisher if your blade didn't come out a diamond, if it wasn't that quality to begin with. The "Juyo" polish can't turn a tired blade into a Kamakura Juto.

 

 

I would agree with Mike on two counts: I have seen Mori san's work and it is very nice. And:

 

"don't be so quick to blame the polisher if your blade didn't come out a diamond, if it wasn't that quality to begin with. The "Juyo" polish can't turn a tired blade into a Kamakura Juto."

 

Many times people expect miracles. One needs to have enough experience to have reasonable expectations.

 

One of the polishers I used always told me he preferred to polish the rusty, twisted, chipped swords one so often sees in the US. I was really surprised to hear this and I had to know why...He said that when these swords are restored, it is always such a shocking transformation that the owners are always amazed and thrilled. No one ever had anything to complain about...

[raiden]

Yes, lets all remember, that no matter what, please remember that it is our responsibility to make sure that these swords are restored properly and safely. I have seen too many swords poorly polished by untrained professionals (meaning not trained in the traditional manner)........just because it was "cheap". A guy once showed me a 30" long Tairyusai Sokan (genuine) that he got a good deal on for the restoration (polish and shirasaya) for $1000 by someone in Canada (I do not know who). Needless to say, the blade had no hiraniku anymore, the yokote was different on both sides, and the shinogi was rounded. Yes it was clean.....and the shirasaya was like a large tree branch....so sad!

Please give some of the young craftsmen that come recomended in Japan, as they try very hard to do their best and they follow the right path. People such as young Morii san and his brother are good examples. I believe you will get your moneys worth and believe that you received a "juyo" grade polish.

[peterqu]

Thank you all for your considered responses.Nice to get all the heavyweights singing from the same hymn sheet for a change.

[Jean]

Nice to get all the heavyweights singing from the same hymn sheet for a change.

 

Is it not always the case, Peter

[Surfson]

Great thread. I think that the designation of Mukansa polish at Aoi arts indicates a surrogate for what we are discussing. Mukansa polishers, as I understand it, are "above judgement", having won many polishing competitions and now often are serving as judges. There is clearly a wide range in ability of polishers, as with every other specialized art within nihonto.

[peterqu]

Jean,If I agreed with you I fear we would both be wrong.Hope to see you in October.Kind regards,

[Paul Martin]

I too can vouch for the workmanship of the Morii Brothers. I often get requests for them in my services. They have both taken top prizes at the NBSK comps. Atsuhiro san's shirasaya are spectacular, and Tetsutaro san's sashikomi is also top notch.

 

Best

[CurtisR]

Lurking and learning...an excellent thread, and has answered several questions I've had - just showing my appreciation

 

Curtis R.

[Brian]

Just to bump this thread, and answer if there is such a thing as different levels of polish...

I have just gotten round to reading my March JSSUS newsletter, and there is an interesting article in there by Christopher Leung. He came across an old 1929 advertisement by Honnami Koson with pricing on various services including polishing.

To quote:

Average grade, per inch is 1 Yen.

Top Grade, per inch is 1.5 Yen

Superior grade, per inch is 2 Yen.

 

So clearly, there are different levels of polishing, even by the Honnami.

 

He also shows a later advert from 1939 where 4 Hon'nami give prices on these 3 grades of polish.

 

Interesting stuff.

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Could be and I would take this to indicate by master, advanced student, beginner student, not uncommon.

[cabowen]

All one has to do is look at war era blades to know there are different levels of polishing.

 

You can pay a living national treasure togi for what should be the peak of the art, or you can pay someone freshly out of their apprenticeship and trying to establish themselves for a lower level polish. Or maybe you can pay a mukansa polisher less and have the work done by his students. There are different levels of work, different rates. The key is value-finding a togi that is highly skilled and yet doesn't charge top rates. They do exist. No matter what, if the work is done by a professionally trained togi, or under his tutelage, you will get at the very least a respectable job that will not harm the sword.

[J Reid]

I just wanted to mention on the topic of rates; that I am having quite a bit of work done by Mr. Benson right now and he charged me an EXTREMELY GOOD rate for everything including shipping etc. Very competitive, I must say..