osoraku

[drjoe]

i've been doing some research on osoraku tanto and i'm trying to find more information on the origins of this style.

 

it is said that the first example was made by Sukemune in the sue-koto era, that the blade was made for a general named Katagiri Katsumoto, and i've also heard that the blade was later owned by Takeda Shingen. apparently the original blade bore a horimono/bonji with "o-so-ra-ku" written in hirigani. most english resources list the translation as "perhaps," though i've also seen it translated as "it is not likely to be found." my friend who is learning Japanese also suggests translations including "likely/probably," "i dare say," "i fear it's likely that..." and "with all due respect."

 

you can imagine many potential meanings for such phrases as it applies to the blade, including Clive Sinclair's suggestion that the "perhaps" may refer to the impermanence of life. but "perhaps" seems to be one of the more rudimentary translations and also seems to usually have more of an optimistic connotation (e.g. "probably" or "likely" rather than "doubtful"). "it is not likely to be found" might just as easily refer to the new blade type, while "with all due respect" could simply be an honorarium to the general.

 

anyway, i'm wondering if there are more resources that discuss the known origins of this blade, in particular the intended meaning of the phrase. i also wonder how we know whether the horimono/bonji was part of the original blade, or whether it may have been added later. finally, i wonder if we know anything about whether this style of blade was intended for a specific martial purpose.

 

[kunitaro]

Osoraku is shortened from Oso(ru)raku,

恐れる　osoreru

恐るる　osoruru

the shape and meaning of Fear/Afraid/Scare...

 

It is for waring on right side of your body.

called Mete-zashi (馬手差し、右手指し）or Ebira-sashi（妻手指）,

and hold with right hand (opposite way) to cut opponent's throat.

[runagmc]

It would be interesting to know more about the history of this style blade. From what I have seen, they must have been extremely rarely made up until modern times... I've seen a few shinshinto, and I see osoraku-zukuri shinsakuto fairly often.

 

Didn't Kiyomaro make some tanto of this style?

[cabowen]

They are indeed rare. I have seen a few from sue Koto, then again more from Shinshinto. Yes, Kiyomaru in particular is known to have made these in shinshinto. Many shinsakuto smiths make them.

[Ian]

Hello

 

I'm sure you will notice that some have a wider Yokote than Hamachi (Shin Shinto at least)

A bummer for koshirae :lol:

[Pete Klein]

The Lambo of Nihonto!

 

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

Last year I saw an osaraku at Kamakura where it was a kantei piece. It was actually by Kiyomaro but I initialy thought it was by Kiyondo who was known to favour this sugata. I seem to also remember that the one I drew an oshigata of, originally had a doubtful Kotetsu mei. Again, I thought this sword was by Kiyondo.

Clive Sinclaire

[Clive Sinclaire]

 

you can imagine many potential meanings for such phrases as it applies to the blade, including Clive Sinclair's suggestion that the "perhaps" may refer to the impermanence of life. but "perhaps" seems to be one of the more rudimentary translations and also seems to usually have more of an optimistic connotation (e.g. "probably" or "likely" rather than "doubtful"). "it is not likely to be found" might just as easily refer to the new blade type, while "with all due respect" could simply be an honorarium to the general.

 

Actually Joe, "perhaps" is the translation given in Conniseur's Book of Japanese Swords", by Kokan Nagama, translated by Mishina Kenji.

Clive Sinclaire

[drjoe]

Actually Joe, "perhaps" is the translation given in Conniseur's Book of Japanese Swords", by Kokan Nagama, translated by Mishina Kenji.

Clive Sinclaire

 

yes, i know, everyone seems to translate it like that -- in english texts, that is. i was just attributing to you the idea that the "perhaps" might refer to the impermanence of life.

 

i'm still interested in whether we know any more about the original osoraku, and whether there are other versions of the meaning such as what kunitaro suggests, but it sounds like we don't have much beyond the speculation that i've come across already.

[J Reid]

I love this style of blade. By far my favourite.

[cabowen]

Here is an oshigata of the above blade....

 

[k morita]

Hi,Joe

 

Kurihara Nobuhide also made Wakizashi size Osoraku.

[Guido]

FWIW, Dr. Homma writes in his "Nihon Kotô-shi"

There is a famous Tantô nicknamed ‘Osoraku-zukuri’ by Sukemune and owned by Katagiri Katsumoto. The four hiragana ‘O So Ra Ku’ are carved on the blade, and it means ‘Perhaps’ (Perhaps, no tanto in this shape could exist).

[kunitaro]

Thank you Morita san.

This is the photo of the Oshigata.

and it is in very nice Koshirae.

[kunitaro]

BTW,

I am afraid to say that "perhaps" translation of Osoraku is not really accurate.

you can use "osoraku" for "perhaps", but only Negative way.

we write 恐らく in Japanese. which is meaning more "I am afraid to say/think that" in English.

 

You can say that "Kare wa OSORAKU makeru de shou"

* Perhaps, He will lose the game, or I am afraid to say that I think he will lose the game.

but, you can not say that "Kare wa osoraku Katsu de shou".

* I am afraid that He will win the game....

we must say that "Kare wa TABUN 多分 katsu deshou"

*Perhaps, He will win the game.

(If you say "Kare wa osoraku katsu de shou" which is meaning that you are wishing him to lose the game,)

It has feeling of "Doubtful"

so, I think that Translation of Horimono on the blade, Osoraku is "afraid""scary'"dreadful""frightful" rather than "Perhaps""probably""Likely" or "maybe".

 

I wonder how Morita san thought about it !?!?

[kunitaro]

And

Kiyondo and Masao of Kiyomaro school.

[Guido]

I am afraid to say that "perhaps" translation of Osoraku is not really accurate.

So, would it be accurate to say

 

本間先生はおそらく間違えました

 

?

 

[Gilles]

Gentlemen,

 

Please see some pictures of a shin-shinto Osoraku I bought a while ago. It is not a top quality tanto but I like it anyway. The previous owner should have spent quite a lot for the polish, the shira saya and a brand new habaki.

 

Hope it helps.

[Guido]

Interesting, I've never seen a Sayagaki by Fukunaga Suiken.

[cabowen]

From Token Sugita is the following list of those known to have done sayagaki from their on-line article on sayagaki:

 

 

　"　さて、江戸幕府崩壊を経て明治という御世となり、刀が美術品としての使命が多くなって来ると同時に鞘書も前述のような使命の他に正真保証、作者の保証という色彩が強くなり、明治時代に残った本阿弥諸家（分家）などが愛好家の求めに応じて鞘書を施すようになった。

本阿弥長識、親善、琳雅、忠敬、天籟などの鞘書は割に見かけるものであり、後に本阿弥光遜、神津伯、平井千葉、小比木忠七郎なども見られる。殊に戦後は本間順二（薫山）、佐藤貫一（寒山）、本阿弥日洲などはよく見かけるものであり、殊に佐藤貫一は極めて多いようである。他に高瀬羽皐、村上孝介（剣掃）、宮形武次（光廬）、近藤鶴堂、川口陟、柴田光男（喘喜堂）、福永酔剣、吉川賢太郎（敬称略）などが挙げられるが、概して日刀保関係の人物が圧倒的に多いといえる。"

 

I have seen several. Here is another from here: http://www.tokka.biz/sword/kanemichi2.html:

 

[cabowen]

So, would it be accurate to say

 

本間先生はおそらく間違えました

 

?

 

 

 

おそらく。。

[drdata]

One of my new favorite blade shapes. Very interesting. Thanks

 

The various interpretations of the bonji is amazing.

 

Regards

[John A Stuart]

本間先生はおそらく間違えました

おそらく。。 [恐らく]

That's funny as hell!!

But, really, who can guess the original intent and does it really matter much?

[cabowen]

本間先生はおそらく間違えました

おそらく。。 [恐らく]

That's funny as hell!!

But, really, who can guess the original intent and does it really matter much?

 

Glad you liked it....

 

Personally, I don't think it really matters much at all....

[Brian]

Can someone share the joke? I haven't found a Japanese wife yet, and somehow I think Nicky would object....

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

Well, Guido asked it Honma sensei could have made a mistake and Chris answered 'perhaps', as in the perhaps meaning originally questioned. Haaaaaa!! John

[cabowen]

Well, Guido asked it Honma sensei could have made a mistake and Chris answered 'perhaps', as in the perhaps meaning originally questioned. Haaaaaa!! John

 

Like a bad manzai routine....

[kunitaro]

本間先生はおそらく間違えました

But, really, who can guess the original intent and does it really matter much?

 

Yes, i am not sure real meaning of Honma sense's article, because, i didn't read it in Japanese, however, Guido san's sentence is correct,

and Bowen san's anser is also correct !

[k morita]

Hi,

This original oshigata is Osoraku-type Wakizashi made by Tegarayama Masashige in Bunka period(1814).

Blade length 1-shaku 2-sun 8-bu (15.2 inch).

From the point of Wakizashi untill Yokote line is 9.5inch.

From Yokote line untill Mune-machi is 5.7 inch.

[Guido]

Well, Guido asked it Honma sensei could have made a mistake and Chris answered 'perhaps', as in the perhaps meaning originally questioned.

It's even weirder than that: since I used Hiragana, it's kind of a word-play - to which Chris responded in the like. As he said, Manzai at its best worst.

 

P.S.: If you like silly, try this: ありがとう - いもむしははたち。