hada exercise Answers posted

[paulb]

A while ago I posted an image showing 5 swords and asked people to identify the period they were made. A lot of people took part and enjoyed the exercise.

Recently I have been looking at swords from several different, but well documented schools and have been surprised at the variation apparent in closely related smiths work. Some of the differences seen were larger within a school than between examples of different schools.

When I started studying the mantra (as I remember it) was that shape told you period, hada tradition hamon school, and boshi smith. I may not have got that right it is some years since I heard it. However the hada of a blade should be a good indicator of tradition.

As another fun exercise I have attached images of 3 swords. None of the images are mine but the owners have given me their permission to use them in various articles. All the swords are koto blades and all have high level authentication papers. For those that want to have a go please take a look and see if you can identify tradition and possibly school as well. I appreciate how diffiuclt it is to see detail from images but hopefully there is enough to see to allow people to identify key factors. Can I suggest as a starting point trying to put them in date order, then tradition and if you really want the challenge school or even smith.

All images are from long swords and I think the hada is indicative of the particular school it is attempting to illustrate.

[J Reid]

I'm sure; like me- we're all contemplating and building our response, Paul.. ..This.. is a good one.

[paulb]

Hi Josh,

I am not sure the images are good enough to allow people to judge. I will leave it up for a while but if there are no takers I might try again with some different ones.

Thanks for the interest

Regards

Paul

[paulb]

I looked at this again this morning and the more I look the more I think the images lack sufficient detail to give anyone much hope. My apologies for that. I think they have increasingly lost detail as I have transferred them from one form to another (could also be a lack of competence on my part)

I will leave the original up for those that might want to have a go at them, but have also attached a different set which hopefully offer greater clarity. Again these are all koto works, authenticated to a high level and in good polish. They all demonstrate what might be described as text book hada for the schools/tradition they represent.

This is not any easy thing to do but as in kantei the discipline of trying to identify what you are seeing is a great aid to learning.

See what you think.

[Civilis]

I found it to be very difficult, so does everybody else apparently or they are all sleeping late

 

But I feel like sticking my neck out today and as a novice I off course have little to lose. So here we go.

 

I think nr 3 is the oldest and Awataguchi school

next is nr 2 and Rai school

then nr 4 Soshu school

most recent nr 1 late muromachi Yamashiro or Yamato school

 

If I have one right, I would be very satisfied...

[Henry Wilson]

Thank you Paul for this very interesting exercise. I will have a go:

 

1 Soshu

2 Bizen

3 Yamashiro

4 Yamato

 

Looking forward to the answer.

[Alex A]

Cheers again Paul, here we go, dont laugh :D , this was done whilst taking flack from the misses for looking at swords, again. (used original 3 pics)

 

1) yamato ko mihara Masahiro(guess)

 

2) bizen sue bizen Tadamitsu (guess)

 

3 soshu odawara smith (clueless)

[paulb]

All the comments on each are understandable, and some are right. No one has them all right as yet. As I said it is a challenging thing to do but I think it is useful. I will let it run for 24 hours so all time zones have a chance if they want

Thanks for taking part

Best regards

paul

[Adrian S]

Ok, Ill make a fool of myself.

 

Image one has three blades.

1) Etchu jigane, Echizen Rai or Uda

2) straight Rai, early

3) Soshu, Masamune or Norishige

 

second image

1) same as 1 above

2) early Bizen, maybe Kanemitsu

3 Yamato , maybe Tegai

4) hhmmm.... guess Yamato again maybe Taima

 

 

The problem is that you can't see the colour of the jigane and how bright the chikei or nie is, or any utsuri or yubashiri. How about an easy one like Hosho :lol:

 

cheers,

[runagmc]

Paul, personally, I need either some hints, or some better pics :| ...

[uwe]

Just a guess,

 

1. Mino

2. Yamato

3. Yamashiro

4. Soshu

 

Though,........ :?

 

Uwe

[Jean]

1 - Soshu

2 - Aoe

3 - Awataguchi

4 - Yamato Kaneuiji

[paulb]

Sorry Adam,

I cant offer better images, they are all I have at present. It would also be difficult to offer hints without giving too much away. Others are getting some reasonable answers based on whats there. The second set show a lot more detail than the first so hopefullly they may help you have a go. As said beofe they each show some charactersitic that is regarded as typical of a given school or tradition, all date from Kamakura to Oei period.

Edit,

Sorry on re-reading I think both Adam's and Adrain's points deserve a better response. Doing this type of exercise from images on a screen has severe limitations. I actually think it is more difficult than shijo kantei from magazines. In those the hada and actvitiy cant be seen but is described for the reader In these you have to try and identify the features from a less than perfect image. Taking Adrians points:

colour- I think it would be incredibly difficult to assess colour on an image. To do it inn hand is difficult enough and I believe can only be done effectviely buy comparison against a known example. (BTW all these images are greyscale)

Brightness and clarity of nie and chickei- all these images have had minimal adjustment. By playimg with contrast, brightness etc it is possible to greatly exaggerate activity within the hada. However this is as likely to mislead as help. Likewise the style and quality of polish can enhance or detract. In this case you look to see if a feature is there or not and then look how it sits within the overall pattern of the hada. Is the pattern large or small, tight or loose. Is there ji-nie or chickei etc. This should be enough to point you towards a tradition. I would suggest that even with sword in hand to be able to gauge comparative brightness of nie or variations in utsuri would be difficult without known examples to compare to.

 

By way of a hint I mentioned in the beginning that the variation wiithin a tradition may be greater than differences between traditions therefore some people saying soshu while others say mino is perfectly understandable. Within the 7 examples there are three traditions represented either by mainline schools or closely related work which at some point has passed as mainline.

[runagmc]

Paul, don't get me wrong... I wasn't complaining. I think these excercises you do are good, and if nothing else, they get us thinking. In my first post I just meant that I would participate, but in this case I'm having trouble forming any meaningful opinions. All that being said I'll guess,

 

1. ?

2. Yamashiro, early Rai

3. Yamashiro, Awataguchi

4. early Mino

 

Edit, Paul, based on your hints,

 

1. ko Bizen

2. Enju

3. Rai

4. early Mino

[Veli]

The second set of pictures:

 

1) Soshu

2) Bizen

3) Enju (Yamashiro)

4) Mino

 

Veli

[paulb]

After a couple of days and more than 450 viewings I think those who were going to answer probably have done. The fact that only 8 people felt confident enough to have a go suggests this was a lot more challenging than the original exercise we did relating to shape. When I was putting it together I was sure that I would find it a very tough call. so well done to all who tried

I think if nothing else it points to a fairly obvious but often overlooked truth. When looking at a sword we need to look at it in it's entirity. What makes a sword one thing and not another is the combination of shape, hada and hamon and how each of these interact with each other. looking at one element makes the task extremely difficult.

Answers:

As the majority focussed on the second set of images I will start with them.

 

1. Ko Bizen- this caused the greatest problem with no-one gettting right first time and only one person (Veli) getting it on the third attempt via pm, well done. The more I look at these very early blades the more I come to the conclusion the differences are very small and subtle. It is easy to understand how the image could be equally attributed to ko-senjuin or an early Kyo smith. The combination of itame and mokume is common to all of them to a greater or lesser degree.

 

2. CHu-Aoe- people either placed this as Yamashiro or Bizen and so to some extent both were partially correct. I mentioned previously about Aoe using Bizen material and Yamashiro technique. Based on the image answers of Ko-Mihara or Enju would have been equally valid.

 

3. Enju- This sword has been well travelled in recent years. When seen recently at the Florida show many regarded it as equal to Rai Kunitoshi or Rai Kunimitsu in quality of jigane. It is a really beautiful thing. When I first saw it I though it comparable to Awataguchi. Then when I saw an Awataguchi blade close up I realised I was kidding myself. This is good but nowhere near as tight and uniform as Awataguchi work. It is however as good as any Rai blade I have studied. The reason it was attributed to Enju is that it has an O-maru boshi. My only regret is that it isnt 6" longer, if it were an O-suriage katana rahter than a wakazashi I have little doubbt it would recieve Juyo papers rahter than the Tokubestu Hozon it currently has.

 

4. Yamato shizu- Answers to Mino and Soshu are equally valid as this represents the transition from Yamato to Mino via Soshu (complicated isnt it ) and shows elements of all.

The Ko-Bizen blade dates from the late Heian or early kamakura the others from mid to late kamakura periods.

 

First set:

These are all Bizen swords

1. the same as 1 above

2. Osafune School

3. Soden Bizen

As mentioned in the beginning often the differences within a tradition, particularly one as prolific and successful as Bizen can show far greater variation than some of the differences between different schools/traditions.

Thank you and well done to all who took part I think all of you got some right or identified the right elements which led you to the conclusion you reached. I hope it has been an enjoyable and useful exercise.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

looking at one element makes the task extremely difficult.

 

Just the best way to be mistaken.

[paulb]

thank you Jacques for your as always positive contribution. You make the effort in doing these things truly worthwhile

[Jean]

On this impossible task, what were the results you got Paul on the second batch of pictures? Did any one get 4 atari?.

[paulb]

Hi Jean

On the second batch two people, you and Veli, got two correct answers. via pm for second and third attempts Veli got them all right

and you had 3 Atari and 1 dozon

Others tended to have one right and others close but not quite where they should be.

I appreciate how challenging it was and the idea as always in these things is not to necessarily be right, but to go through the process. As in kantei it forces you to look at detail and assess. Judging school and smith on about 10cm of steel is as has been said almost impossible (possible exception of Gassan or Norishige) but none the less it helps focus eye and mind (I hope).

[uwe]

Amusing exercise Pushed me back to the books :lol:

Thank you Paul

Uwe

[Henry Wilson]

Cheers Paul. I opened a dusty sword book for the first time in ages. Much appreciated.

[Jim P]

Thanks Paul,That was fun, maybe the next one a bit more info we have spoken before about how hard it is sometimes to work out school from hada I found it is easy to be influenced reading other posts :? my picks were

Bizen

Soshu

Yamato

Yamashiro

[Alex A]

Thanks Paul, good practice

 

Alex

[Brian]

Thanks Paul, always good to get the brain cells working. Was still finding time to go through the books, but I think we need more of this kind of exercise.

While no substitute for formal kantei, it is a worthwhile and enjoyable exercise. Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

We have done hada and shape...perhaps we need one purely hamon based next

 

Brian

[paulb]

I was thinking the same thing Brian but my photography isnt up to showing detail of some of the more subtle ones. may have to revert to oshigata which will take a bit more time.

I will se what I can do

cheers

[Civilis]

Nice but difficult exercise, I came close on two of them using my limited knowledge and very limited resources, which makes me very satisfied. At least glad to see my answers weren't utter nonsense on all accounts . I tried to be the first to answer because in an earlier one of your quizzes I feld very biased based on the answers already given.

 

Maybe next time you could use a poll type of structure or answers via PM, maybe that way you get some more participants too. It also suprised me a little bit to see that so little of the real veterans on this forum took a shot.

[Grey Doffin]

I just posted an exercise using hamon.

Grey