Kanesada wakizashi

[drjoe]

it's said that ebay isn't a place to find diamonds in the rough, but what about this one?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380593725900

 

what's your vote: gimei or Shinto Kanesada worthy of polish and Shinsa?

[Brian]

No-one said you won't find diamonds in the rough...we said you won't find a treasure that goes unnoticed or dirt cheap.

The fact that this is a wakizashi, unpolished and still went for over $2300 on eBay proves this. People saw it, and bid on it. Add the polish and papers, and it was about right.

Imho, shoshin. Nice blade.

 

Brian

[NihontoEurope]

Definately authentic.

 

/Martin

[cabowen]

As said, add in the restoration costs and it is probably close to break even. The hamon on this blade isn't done as well as is more commonly seen in this smith's work.

[Adrian]

it's said that ebay isn't a place to find diamonds in the rough

 

 

When it comes to nihonto/tosogu Ebay is like the adult industry, everyone despises it yet it has innumerable customers

[hxv]

I'm pretty certain it's genuine. I spent a couple of days looking at the mei and did a careful comparison with what I have in Fujishiro, Nihonto Zuikan, and papered swords on various websites. I placed a price tag on it and came out as the under bidder. I'm not heart broken, though. As Chris says, it still needs a polish & new shirasaya & shinsa. For your enjoyment, here is the mei comparison. The nakago shape, nakago jiri, and yasurime are all consistent with examples I have, too.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Which Kanesada ? shodai or nidai ?

[hxv]

Jacques,

 

Nidai.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I think it is gimei even if it is well forged.

[hxv]

Jacques,

 

The only thing that nagged me a little (and only a little) is the top kanji. Some of the strokes are a little different from the rest of the verified examples, specifically the top horizontal stroke. But, it is well chiseled, deep and confident, and there are enough variations even between the verified examples that my opinion is that it is shoshin. If one of the NMB members is the lucky winner of the auction, won't he/she be so kind as to let us know the result of shinsa when it is available? From the way the auction went, the other two guys knew exactly what they were doing. I have the feeling there is a good chance they are members here.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

It is not at the top kanji that you need to look at but at the ji kami.

 

[John A Stuart]

Hey, as I'm not an authority, so of little worth, if I was to covet this smith, Jacques, I would be inclined to believe this is shoshin. John

[hxv]

Jacques,

 

Yes, I see your marked up area that shows variation from the other mei. I don't understand why this variation is crucial, though, as there are enough variations in these particular strokes among the other mei as well. Will you please elaborate so I can understand more clearly?

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Veli]

I am inclined to think this is Shoshin. If not, it is the best Gimei I have ever seen! On the other hand, the hamon is a bit untypical for nidai Kanesada, isn't it?

 

Veli

[Brian]

Here is Jacques' excellent comparison hosted here, where it will still be in a few months instead of a dead link to an image hosting site.

Yes..there are some variations, but I would bet money it is shoshin.

 

Brian

[hxv]

Brian,

 

Actually, that was my mei comparison. I made that one up to study and ponder when I was contemplating whether or not to bid on the wakizashi. In the end, I decided it was shoshin but was too cheap with my bid. Oh well...Cheap is my middle name!

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[J Reid]

First and fifth specimen look almost identical (even in the circled area). I would say there is enough variation amongst the examples that it would most likely be shoshin.

[Brian]

Ah..sorry Hoanh.

I had just looked at your pic a minute before

Must be losing my mind.

 

Brian

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

Yes it is subtle but you will not find that (sword in question) on another example.

[hxv]

Ah..sorry Hoanh.

I had just looked at your pic a minute before

Must be losing my mind.

 

No worries, Brian! Anyhow, even though I didn't win the auction, I am happy. I just realized that I have made progress with my nihonto study in the past year and collected enough resources in my library to discuss shoshin & gimei intelligently. Hahaha... who says an old dog can't learn new tricks? (not that I'm old compared to most of you guys ).

 

Hoanh

[cabowen]

One could pick out something in almost each one of the shoshin examples that is different from the others. I don't think one can make any determinations here without blade in hand, but it looks close enough in my opinion that I would have been comfortable paying the winning bid for it...

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Hoanh,

 

I forgot to say you that your examples from Fujishiro are not the good ones, there are mei of the Shodai Kanesada ( good ones are under Terukane page 362).

[hxv]

Thank you Jacques. No wonder they look different from the rest.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Surfson]

Hi All. Great thread on this sword. I am the winning bidder on it but I don't yet have it in hand. I looked at all my examples in the taikans and Fujishiro and am convinced that it is shoshin. Kanesada (aka Terukane) is ranked jojo saku and according to my reading has had over 80 blades go juyo (half as Terukane and half as Kanesada). The quality of the work visible in the photos is convincing to me. I'm not saying that this sword will go juyo, but if it makes even tokubetsu hozon, then this is a very cheap price versus the value it will have after polish and shinsa. Protecting value is only one goal for sensible collectors, but I was also motivated due to my pleasure from this school of work. I am awaiting three blades' return from restoration by Kenji Mishina that are related (Echizen Tsuda Sukehiro, Shimada Sukemune (we have a thread on this one) and Tango Kanemichi (I think I posted a photo of the amazing hamon of this one)), all of which have these characteristics (so far all three have made tokubetsu hozon). This Kanesada has wonderful toran ba and tobiyaki, and I hope that when I hold it in hand it will show its true beauty. It has not been in the hands of collectors yet, and I usually focus on such blades only on ebay. Hoanh, you clearly have come a long way, and I'm sorry that it didn't go your way. Cheers, Bob

[hxv]

Hi Bob,

 

My gut instinct was right that it must be one of us here . Congratulations on a fine purchase! I'm happy the sword found a new custodian in one of the members. Won't you let us know how the result of shinsa when it becomes available? If you are so inclined, please post the result here or drop me a private email. About the sword not going my way, that's quite alright. There will always be another worthwhile sword. I'll drop you an email later today to catch up.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

One thing i have not seen before, there is not space enough between the kanji Kami and Kane and between Kane and Sada.

[runagmc]

I studied this mei for a while against all the examples I have, and I would think it's shoshin. If not, it's a brilliant gimei. Jacques has done well to point out some variances, but in my opinion they aren't really any more substantial than the variances found amongst the papered examples. Hopefully the shinsa team will agree. :D

[Surfson]

i also studied the mei carefully. To me, the two strokes inside the sada were the most variable. If you notice the fifth mei from the left, it has the two strokes on the left side of the space in the center of the sada. The ebay sword also has those two strokes on the left side. All the others have them in the middle of the box of the sada. That fifth example is also the most similar to the ebay sword in terms of the angle of the kami that Jacques was referring to as well as the space between the kane and the sada. Often times, makers signatures drift slowly with age, and I assume that the ebay sword and the fifth example from the left were made at roughly the same time. I'm really quite confident that it is shoshin, but we will see what the NBTHK thinks! I will keep you posted on the result. Same thing with the Sukehiro and the Sukemune, both of which are going to be submitted for Juyo. Cheers, Bob

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

What I mean is that if you trace a line starting from the dot at the bottom of the kanji kami and centered on it up to the little vertical stroke which cuts the horizontal line , this line does not cut the vertical stroke . it is not the case on the mei discussed here.

 

 

[NihontoEurope]

Jacques,

 

I don't think this is relevant in this case.

 

What I mean is; if you make that trace on every equivalent cut you will not get a match in any case presented. We must assume that there are no Gimei in the books. With that assumption it is not relevant to measure whether it is Gimei or Shoshin. All the major hallmarks are there...Mei, Yasurime etc.

 

I'm sure it's a good way test/verify Mei in general, but in this specific case and smith I would say no.

 

What do you think?

 

/Martin