Shingane?

[zatoichi]

Hello all ,just wanted to know if this looks like shingane coming through in the jihada. Thank you

Justin

[Grey Doffin]

I think so.

Grey

[Jean]

I was thinking so, but question: how come such blade be TH?

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-oumi- ... generation

[Marius]

Could it be because it is a Hizen blade? They had thin kawagane.

[Jean]

Mariusz,

 

What do you mean by this? It is not an excuse for getting TH, look at the criteria. There are enough Hizen blades not showing shingane for passing this one TH.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

I was thinking so, but question: how come such blade be TH?

 

 

1 - It is not shingane.

 

2 - That blade is in agreement with the Tokuho criterion (seems not significantly tired)

 

3 - That blade was polished after having origami.

[Jean]

That was a question, Jacques, but how can you say this based on a picture, as you said previously:

 

Nevertheless i wonder how one can say it could get tokubetsu hozon without having the blade in hands and without the necessary knowledge to exactly check the potential of that sword.

 

 

BTW, what is it if not shingane?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Have seen this before on Hizen-to, thin steel, perhaps, but not shingane. Maybe one of the Hizen collectors will be generous and chime in with an explanation.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jean,

 

 

That was a question, Jacques, but how can you say this based on a picture, as you said previously:

 

I said there are 3 possibilities, nothing more.

[paulb]

There have been many long debates as to what this type of dark featureless patch was in Hizen Swords. Much the same discussion also takes place with Rai and Aoe work. In many standard references they state that academics are unsure as to whether it is a fault or a feature. Unless things have changes recently the experts seem to be split 50/50.

A couple of points to think about:

Typically when core steel is exposed it looks coarse and has a soft "look". It is generally ugly. the above mentioned cases what we are seeing is patches of clear, bright and dark steel. It looks to be an intregal part of the jigane.

It has been suggested that in the case of Hizen blades this feature was deliberate attempt to simulate what they were seeing in Yamashiro swords, which was the work they were trying to copy.

There is also the more cynical view that the were just reducing costs by having a very thin skin on their swords and as result core steel appeared after very few polishes.

Which view is correct I dont know. Considering the prestige associated with Tadayoshi and Tadahiro blades it would seem strange for them to try and cut corners to save money, but stranger things have happened.

When I have seen this is Hizen Rai and Aoe work before to me it does not look like core it looks like patches of very hard clear steel within the surface.

Regards

Paul

[Jean]

Sorry Jacques and apologies. As it was written , it meant that all three points were gathered. Effectivelly you are right, there are these 3 possibilities.

 

For me Hizen swords are featured by konuka hada and not by rai hada, meaning that any discrepancies in the konuka hada must be rather attributed to thin skin than to an emulation of Rai hada. In fact Rai hada has also running itame, very strong chikei.

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/niji-kunitoshi/index.html

[paulb]

Hi Jean,

I tend to agree with you although the quality of the steel you see in these patches is somewhat better than the core steel you see in other work. When I collected Hizen swords I always preferred them not to have this characteristic as I think it detracts from the controlled beauty of the konuka hada.

[cabowen]

Clearly there is a discontinuity in the steel. This can only occur when there are two different steels present. Whether it is shingane or an intermediate layer, I think the effect is rather similar: it is ugly.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Konuka hada is inspired from Rai school (which hada is generally a tight ko-itame even can be nashiji). However man can find O-itame mixed in itame and fairly hadatachi too.

 

http://www.emuseum.jp/detail/100476/000 ... =657&num=3

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/ss.php?title=Rai% ... unitoshi-2

[Jean]

And masame too as stated by Nakayama Kokan:

http://books.google.fr/books?id=zPyswmG ... ol&f=false

 

Hizen jigane a mix of Yamashiro tradition but konuka hada and shinto tradition

http://books.google.fr/books?id=zPyswmG ... ne&f=false

[Jean]

What is interesting in this blade is the nagasa (short of 4cm to be katana size), the TH kanteisho and the requested prize only 500k¥.

 

I don't know if anyone remember but a few months ago, Aoi-Art had on sale a Taima katana for around 1M¥, the pictures taken at an angle (as this one) displaid clearly patches of shingane.

[zatoichi]

Jacques,

It certainly could have been polished after having origami which may have brought this out. If you would not mind could you please explain why you do not think it is shingane, and why you think it came about.(these might be the same thing) Thank you

Justin

[Jean]

Justin,

 

It is the way Jacques wrote his post that is misleading you as I was misled.

 

He should have written:

 

"Hereunder are 3 reasons why this sword could have been granted TH:

 

Either:

 

1-

 

Or

 

2-

 

Or

 

3- "

[nihonto1001]

There are otherwise fine swords, with shingane, that have received Juyo Papers. The Japanese Sword community loves Hizen-to. The NBTHK might have overlooked it.

[John A Stuart]

And the prices for high quality Hizen swords prove this. Not my cuppa, but, when you see a good one they are magnificent. John

[Jean]

Jon,

 

You are overlooking the fact that the second generation Tadayoshi has had one of the longest productive life among Japanese smiths. Hundred of swords are available from him and furthermore a great number of them have no shintetsu problem. I have seen quite a lot of his swords on Aoi-Art website with no problems. I very much doubt that NBTHK has changed its standards for such a smith.

 

I'll be very interested in seeing the juyo blades showing Shintetsu from Shinto smiths.

[cabowen]

It would not surprise me to see Juyo, TH or whatever with shintetsu showing. Regardless of the kanteisho, it would still be ugly. We should focus on the blade, not the paper.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

He should have written:

Hereunder are 3 reasons why this sword could have been granted TH:

 

 

fully agreed

[runagmc]

As far as shintetsu goes, this doesn't look so bad...compared to most swords with exposed shintetsu.

 

Edit:

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

With Hizen-to, I believe you will find the shingane feature to which you refer, is more often encountered in waki-Hizen-to rather than mainline Tadayoshi. It is also far more prevelant in Muromachi period Kazu-uichi-mono of course.

I have a number of Hizen swords and only one (a shodai Tadakuni) displays small patches that have no pattern, or shingane on the surface. It is also quite difficult to see. Normally, I think this is refered to as "Tsukare" or "tired" as it certainly will not take another polish. We Hizen collectors prefer to call this Hizen Sumi-hada as this is less offensive!

I have just gone into my sword room to count my Hizen-to and there are 12, only the one previously mentioned being guilty of displaying shingane. (A shodai Yukihiro has a couple of coarse spots in the Ji which may be one polish away from suni-hada) . As mentioned already, at shinsa a degree of shingane showing might be accepted in certain cases, depending on the severity of it. (By the way it took me ages to realise that TH referred to by several of you meant Tokubetsu Hozon, gentlemen, respect for the written word I think)

Regards

Clive Sinclaire