Question...

[Curran]

Peter K:

 

20 years = yes

50 years = no , not really

 

Variables are numerous. There will always be an interest in fine weapons.

Major variables: Japan economy and demographics.

 

Most economies see a middle class only in their high growth years. Then tend to settle more into haves and have nots.

That bulge is also represented in the appreciation and understanding of mid level artwork. Then tends to separate like water & oil into the buyers and owners of the very best and the growing number of buyers of the more base. The middle starves through attrition. 2 generations of downside is pretty hard, unless some sort or renewal or revival event. Don't know if Japan will get that, with their demographics.

Tokubetsu Juyo or true museum display grade WoW! works holding or inflating in price and WW2 swords raising in price. Everything else softening.

 

Other variables are what it costs to produce and equivalent piece of artwork today.

Gold and shakudo Yoshioka sets climbing in demand and even value, often off to China and Russia.

[runagmc]

The way I see it, having an interest in and studying Nihonto can be seperate from collecting. It has been for me for the most part. I've only owned a handfull of Nihonto, but I've spent literally thousands of hours studying the different aspects of the subject (unfortunately mostly through books and the internet). I'm probably one of the younger members on the forum (in my late 20's), so hopefully I will have opportunities to do more collecting and hands on study in the future.

 

I think people will always be fascinated by the image of the Samurai, as well as the unique asthetic of traditional Japanese artistry and craftsmanship. As long as this is the case there will be an interest in Nihonto. That being said, I have no idea if the interest will expand or shrink...

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

This is an interesting subject and, as an older collector, I respectively tender the following comments.

 

In Japan, where the culture of the Japanese sword is still important, there are many concerns from the older generation of those involved in Japanese sword-collecting, particularly togishi. It seems that fewer swords are being polished, both from abroad and even at home. This, of course, is understandable, as there is a finite number of swords that require polishing, and once polished, they are unlikely to need this to be done again.

Fewer deshi are undertaking apprenticeships and so there is the danger that the art will not be preserved. This, of course, effects all the ancillary arts such as shira-saya, habaki, koshirae making etc. Further, I understand that even the shinsa system is under threat as fewer swords are being submitted, presumably for the same reason as there are fewer swords needing to be polished.

 

I think that this reflects the general apathy of the younger generation in Japan who, maybe, are more interested in Western culture than in that of their own. I noticed over the last few years that very few restaurants in Japan now have tatami seating, which I always thought was quintisensually Japanese. I am trying to say that, even in Japan, the native culture is generally seen as being under threat and if it is so there, the likelyhood of it surviving abroad, seems slight.

 

As for sword collecting by Westerners, all the tools available such as books and internet sites, have their uses, as a published author on the subject, how could I think otherwise? However, I am firmly of the belief that to truely learn and understand Japanese swords, there is no alternative than to study them in Japan - there is no otherway. By this I do not mean just a visit to the DTI once a year, but close study under a good teacher - difficult but very necessary. Like I said, I am now an "old collector" (I prefer a "Mature collector") having bought my first sword in 1969, so you might think it has been easy for me but this is not the case and sword collecting has always been a rich man's hobby. Learning about Japanese swords is a far greater area of study than the simple acquisition of them. In the future it will be difficult to collect Japanese swords, but the point I am struggling to make, is that it always has been.

(Brian : I hope this is not too much of a ramble and departure from the thrust of this thread).

Clive Sinclaire

[cabowen]

Gentlemen

It seems that fewer swords are being polished, both from abroad and even at home. This, of course, is understandable, as there is a finite number of swords that require polishing, and once polished, they are unlikely to need this to be done again.

Fewer deshi are undertaking apprenticeships and so there is the danger that the art will not be preserved. This, of course, effects all the ancillary arts such as shira-saya, habaki, koshirae making etc. Further, I understand that even the shinsa system is under threat as fewer swords are being submitted, presumably for the same reason as there are fewer swords needing to be polished.

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly with all of Clive's comments but would add that while there is no doubt the pool of swords is rather stable and with every sword polished it reduces the number needing polish, I think a far more important effect has been the 20 year economic malaise Japan has seen in combination with the strong yen. When polish costs have gone from $50 to $150 per inch, the demand is bound to decrease. There is a lot of pent up demand I believe and should the dollar strengthen greatly versus the yen I personally know many people who will be sending swords to Japan for polish again.

 

As for less swords going through shinsa, I would posit that this is primarily an NBTHK issue as I believe the NTHK-NPO has seen an increase in submissions the last several years. Undoubtedly less swords need shinsa but based on what I hear from Japan, the scandals that have dogged the NBTHK over the years has done damage to their reputation in Japan and turned a lot of people off.

[nagamaki - Franco]

These days the Rochester Study Group has all but faded away into the shadows and not due to lack of interest in nihonto, no, there were always at least a few new faces interested in collecting for a variety of reasons, but instead more from a lack of new nihonto collectors interested in making the needed committment to the academic side of study necessary and essential to fill in the needs of running a club that was based upon nihonto appreciation from a kantei standpoint, where life's issues were catching up with aging members.

[Lindus]

Some years ago a dealer in Nihonto stated that the average collector retired around twenty years into his/her hobby. Have thought that the Internet was both the boon and doom of collecting,it inhibits reading and communication. In my early days we were thrilled when a friend phoned to say that he had found something,often drove hundreds of miles to meet up with like minded folk....the first Token Taikai in London was like the joy of loosing ones virginity in an orgy .

Sadly both the internet and its off shoot such as our beloved NMB have thrown the fun of wild collecting into the rubbish bin. Gone the days when you read,Bought/traded and failed to gain a national treasure,now the younger generation{If any} are told to buy in polish,with papers to be assured that what they own is "Good".

If you take the Fun and adventure out of anything it becomes futile to the young.....

Are we becoming similar to those Georgian silver collectors??...I fear we may well be.

[cabowen]

Sadly both the internet and its off shoot such as our beloved NMB have thrown the fun of wild collecting into the rubbish bin. Gone the days when you read,Bought/traded and failed to gain a national treasure,now the younger generation{If any} are told to buy in polish,with papers to be assured that what they own is "Good".

If you take the Fun and adventure out of anything it becomes futile to the young.....

 

There is no doubting that many were attracted to Japanese swords in the early days because of the treasure hunting aspects. Personally, I am glad that those days are, for the most part, behind us, because I have always hoped that once we moved beyond this phase, only those in it for purer reasons would remain and real study and research would progress.

[Lindus]

Rubbish dear sir,were it not for the "Treasure Hunting" aspect of all archeology {of which we are part} life would be even more grey.

You are a great bonus to us all,sensible and full of knowledge but be assured that you also hold back many young collectors who may read your posts and retreat from our world.

Your most interested follower.

Regards

Roy

[cabowen]

Well, in comparison to what you describe, there is no real treasure hunting of swords in Japan and I found that environment more conducive to scholarship and learning, shared freely without worry that someone else, if educated, would find the gold. It was quite refreshing to be around those more interested in the art and history and less about profit potential. Of course, treasure hunters serve an important function, to each his own.

[Lindus]

Well, in comparison to what you describe, there is no real treasure hunting of swords in Japan and I found that environment more conducive to scholarship and learning, shared freely without worry that someone else, if educated, would find the gold. It was quite refreshing to be around those more interested in the art and history and less about profit potential. Of course, treasure hunters serve an important function, to each his own.

 

Of course.I could name at least one member who via my 'Scatter gun' form of collecting became a real student of Nihonto. Will allow him if he wish's to add to this debate.

What happens in Japan seems not so important,profit potential....? is this pointed in any direction??. At the end of any collecting life be it Georgian silver or Nihonto,it has to return a pension pontential surely?.

Roy

[sanjuro]

Collecting as opposed to treasure hunting is always about scholarship in the end. Treasure hunters per se are the cowboys of the collecting world and seldom see the advantage of scholarship in their chosen field of interest. They tend in the main to depend upon the knowledge of others to confirm or deny the validity of any treasures they dig up out of op-shops and garage sales. I dont say they have no place in our field, merely that they are not the solid core of it. What I'm trying to say is that collecting goes beyond the fascination and curiosity that typifies the treasure hunter.The days when an enthusiastic schoolboy could acquire a decent nihonto at the local junk shop are over. The number of swords available being less and the ever increasing rarity of good examples being easily accessible, have seen those early finds of enthusiastic amateurs become increasingly rare until they are now virtually non-existent. Whilst there is no doubt an element of treasure hunter in every collector, a collector has some ultimate view in mind as the focus of his collection. Knowledge therefore becomes a priority in order to achieve that view.

Having said as much, I am well aware that to the majority of young at least, scholarship itself holds little appeal, and therein lies at least part of the problem.

Pension potential????? Personally I dont hold any such expectation since my interest in nihonto is not pecuniary. I think if one approaches this hobby with the idea of making money from it at some point in the future, one is doomed to disappointment. One is also undertaking a pursuit that has very poor returns against investment both in terms of capital outlay and time in the accumulation of sufficient knowledge.

[kusunokimasahige]

Reading all these statements I am actually happy to be a dillettante collector. I collect what I like.

 

Of course studying the field of Nihonto is very important, but to me as an ancient historian, studying the history of Japan, apart from Rome and Greece is equally as important. The money I earn teaching will not help me to collect a lot of things, but does permit me to collect nice things once and a while.

 

Collecting has been a part of human life throughout history. Even tha ancient Romans collected things, not only in their temples, but also privately. There are some references to this in classical literature, and some of the finds in Pompeii and Herculaneum substantiate these facts.

 

There was a documentary once on a Dutch TV channel about a man who sold French Fries from a vending trailer, he lived in a small rented apartment, but did own one of the rarest Ferrari's ever built. That was more important to him than a large house or status. Same with one of the members of the gliding club I used to be a member of. He came to the field in an old rusty Lada, but behind it was a Discus Glider of about 120.000 Euros.

 

The field of collecting is not only for the rich. A lot of "middle class" people as well as some of the not so fortunate buy and sell antiques, with more or less success, helped by TV shows like Bargain Hunt and the Antiques Roadshow, and some of them collect. There are many fields of collecting, from WWII militaria, to toys, spoons, stamps etcetera. All of these need study, some fields more intense, like Nihonto, fine arts and antiques and for instance some toys like Steiff bears, but without any form of study it will always be marginal.

 

Therefore I think that the studying part is most important, and forms the greatest joy, since being able to discern several variants of the same thing (for instance swords), various differences in craftsmanship etc. in itself is very rewarding and it does have its merits. Whether or not you have one or 50 art-swords, it is always the road, not the destination which should be seen as the more important.

 

What will happen in the future, with any field of collecting, remains to be seen. Too many variables to take into account.

Prices can soar, and can fall. Wars may still come we do not have any notion of, natural disasters, greenhouse effects, what have you. But there will always be people who like to collect and like to deepen their knowledge of the things they collect, historically as well as the ast-aspects and more. We are not living on the Planet of the Apes yet.

 

KM

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hard to take a weekend off from this board without needing to catch up on some very interesting info.

 

If the collecting of Nihonto is for the "rich," then my lovely wife must be hiding something from me! Linda & I have what I think is a fine & reasonable collection of blades that we've slowly accumulated over the past dozen years, with a couple of real gems. We certainly aren't in the "business" of collecting, but rather enjoy the study of our blades for the history, suitability of each for its intended use, & just plain beauty. Our sword society members are, in large part, collecting for the same reasons, assuming they aren't lying to the rest of us. We have four former shinsa who are happy to share their knowledge, & often bring in a blade or two to sell to us members. In fact, at our November meeting, one of them brought in four of his own Nihonto & eight of another senior member's who is probably in terminal health. The most expensive of those blades was around US$2,000, & ranged in age from mid-Koto to early Shinto, in both shirasaya & koshirae. Yes, I did buy one: a nice papered wakizashi for $700.

 

As far as the "doom of collecting," just take a look in the Izakaya on what else we members collect (http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=10138!! Everything from jet pilot helmets to Roman coins to cannon to the tortoises we collect. Why would anyone think that Japanese blades would fall completely out of "fashion" for collectors? At our sword exhibition the end of September, we had nearly 1,000 attendees who were interested enough to spend several hours examining our Nihonto & asking good questions, & we've added a dozen new club members as a direct result. Now that may be because we happen to live in the "melting pot" of Hawaii where nearly a quarter of our population is of Japanese extraction, but I sure don't see a lack of present or future interest in the Japanese sword.

 

Now Piers & I are having a quiet discussion about the state & future of sword smiths in Japan. On our Osafune trip earlier this year, he & Linda & I spoke to several smiths who said they are very worried that there won't be future generations of smiths because of the lack of buying interest in Japan. Piers & I are trying to come up with a way to open new markets in the U.S. & elsewhere for these shinsakuto. There must be other ways that NMB members can help in areas like this.

 

Ken

[cabowen]

Hard to take a weekend off from this board without needing to catch up on some very interesting info.

 

If the collecting of Nihonto is for the "rich," then my lovely wife must be hiding something from me! Linda & I have what I think is a fine & reasonable collection of blades that we've slowly accumulated over the past dozen years, with a couple of real gems. We certainly aren't in the "business" of collecting, but rather enjoy the study of our blades for the history, suitability of each for its intended use, & just plain beauty. Our sword society members are, in large part, collecting for the same reasons, assuming they aren't lying to the rest of us. We have four former shinsa who are happy to share their knowledge, & often bring in a blade or two to sell to us members. In fact, at our November meeting, one of them brought in four of his own Nihonto & eight of another senior member's who is probably in terminal health. The most expensive of those blades was around US$2,000, & ranged in age from mid-Koto to early Shinto, in both shirasaya & koshirae. Yes, I did buy one: a nice papered wakizashi for $700.

 

As someone else mentioned, there will always be a healthy market for things at both ends of the scale, for several reasons. It is the middle ground that is very soft. And that middle is where the bulk of the "better" swords reside. Not that one can't get a TH level sword for $2000 once in a while, but that is not current market.

 

 

As far as the "doom of collecting," just take a look in the Izakaya on what else we members collect (http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=10138!! Everything from jet pilot helmets to Roman coins to cannon to the tortoises we collect. Why would anyone think that Japanese blades would fall completely out of "fashion" for collectors? At our sword exhibition the end of September, we had nearly 1,000 attendees who were interested enough to spend several hours examining our Nihonto & asking good questions, & we've added a dozen new club members as a direct result. Now that may be because we happen to live in the "melting pot" of Hawaii where nearly a quarter of our population is of Japanese extraction, but I sure don't see a lack of present or future interest in the Japanese sword.

 

I think it is fair to say that having a quarter of the population of Japanese extraction tends to create a rather advantageous and unique situation that may not be quite the norm everywhere else. There has been a steady decline in the number of collectors in the mainland if you use subscriptions to sword publications and show attendance as a proxy....

 

Now Piers & I are having a quiet discussion about the state & future of sword smiths in Japan. On our Osafune trip earlier this year, he & Linda & I spoke to several smiths who said they are very worried that there won't be future generations of smiths because of the lack of buying interest in Japan. Piers & I are trying to come up with a way to open new markets in the U.S. & elsewhere for these shinsakuto. There must be other ways that NMB members can help in areas like this.

 

There is no doubt that the future of the craft is in danger. This has been a topic in Japan for the last 20 years. Few enter a profession in decline. I have been promoting the craft for some 20 years and have steady seen a decline in the number of blades ordered. It comes down to economics and the strong yen/weak dollar aren't helping. I know of several smiths that are lucky to receive a few orders a year....I admire your efforts on this front.....

[kusunokimasahige]

The future of the craft may be in danger, but is the craft still the craft ?

 

When I see smith of the modern era using power hammers I do not really get the idea that the craft still is the craft.

Also, how many of them still have apprentices ? There are not many Westerners training if I am correct who could

export it, and orders for blades will be low if one considers that there has been a rising tendency to buy cheaper

Chinese knock-offs for Tameshi-Giri and Iaido in stead of Gendai-to.

 

KM

[sanjuro]

KM.

 

is the craft still the craft ?

When I see smith of the modern era using power hammers I do not really get the idea that the craft still is the craft.

 

The use of a power hammer in no way diminishes the skill of the craftsman or the quality of his work, it merely replaces a man with a hammer and thus reduces the cost of production. A power hammer is far more accurate than a human hammerman.

 

When you go to a re-enactment do you ride a horse or a chariot merely to get there, just because it was traditional and in some way a 'purer' form of transport? Or do you drive a car because its more efficient?

[kusunokimasahige]

Discussion : Is the craft still the craft ?

 

moved here :

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14524

 

 

KM

[christianmalterre]

The Sake of collecting is collecting(at least for mineself here-giving mine 2 cents)

 

Collecting

The collector interested in something-always(at least most time)does spent what it´s worth in his eyes-an collector does not care about the money he/she does invest such to attain his personal goal-as money,has nothing to do with real passion and/or interest of money.

Me for mine part do invest such sums i feel confortable with-not more,not less.

Portemonnaie is of course an indicator-of course,but,even lower situated collectors do themself not that hard in finding really good and nice antiques those days(if passion is existant and certain knowledge already there).

I do agree-the general to ben observed tendence is an declination,not only in interest(real interest),but also in time(collectors do allow themself to...).

Today´s live-situation does most time not allow youngsters to reflect-at least most do not take this (THE!) needed time.

 

Money

Money is essential,the more you have-the better your´s chance so to purchase good stuff-learn from it-and increase yours connaissances;which automatically will increase your´s QUALITY of collected items by time...

Only High grade objects will hold their´s value-moderate to low grade objects are available already in masses-even more in future

(Japan is DOWN UNDER-they already speculate and are depending 4 times of the bas of Greece!)

 

You only do get back your´s money(maybe with some +)if you do(and did) invest in high grade stuff.

 

Such here-two discrepancies within one general term(Collecting).

Do you collect-or do you play some brookeri("i have seen this but in T.V."-most do calm their´s wifes when returning from an new purchase-"This time darling-it´s for shure an very good and VALUABLE piece"-believe me,it´s much better than the last one"(LOL!) )?

 

Conclusion

Both does not function.

Those interested in both-should ask professional dealears how difficult their´s job did get within the last 20 Years...

 

Christian

[J Reid]

I started collecting nihonto at age 16. I am now 21 (almost 22). I am most likely the youngest collector on the board. I have got my brother (19) and a handful of friends that follow me in study. Hopefully coming forward will help people see that there is hope for this amazing area of expertise to continue for many more centuries to come. :D

[Lance]

Well, in comparison to what you describe, there is no real treasure hunting of swords in Japan and I found that environment more conducive to scholarship and learning, shared freely without worry that someone else, if educated, would find the gold. It was quite refreshing to be around those more interested in the art and history and less about profit potential. Of course, treasure hunters serve an important function, to each his own.

 

 

I might get strong disagreement for this point but here goes:

The surrender of swords at the end of World War 2 certainly wasn't good for previous owners or the swords themselves in many cases, but it did end up making a lot of swords available to Japanese dealers/collectors that would never have been available to them without this happening, and they did have their own period of treasure hunting; during the 1970's-1990's when they could come to US and other countries sword shows, and buy swords that were worth much more in their native country.

 

My impression of the future is that it will be more difficult for someone to just "fall" into collecting or study by coming across an antique sword or tsuba etc due to availability and economically as well. Once bitten though, the wealth of information available will make it easier for someone starting out to learn and enjoy this field than in the past.

 

Regards,

Lance

[sanjuro]

It is because of the information revolution in nihonto that appreciation of nihonto has initially grown. Back in the 70's and 90's there was little information written or otherwise from which to gain an appreciation of any aspect of nihonto. Research was then long and arduous and sometimes hard won. One had to have a real passion for the hobby and hence became a more avid collector. With the increase in the availability of information came the concomitant increase in prices as collecting in the West fell into line with the native Japanese collector base. The higher American dollar still however made the collection of nihonto a viable pastime. Not quite so much now of course with Western economies in a state of deterioration. Now we have an educated population or at least one that has easy access to information and a comprehensive dealer population that is for the most part, well informed.

[Lance]

I agree with everything you say, and am extremely grateful that the hard won knowledge of the past has been shared so freely both here on the board and by other collectors I've met.

Regards,

Lance

[kusunokimasahige]

Discussion : Is the craft still the craft ?

 

moved here :

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14524

 

 

KM

[sanjuro]

KM.

 

The reason I did not enlarge upon what I said concerning power hammers and your subsequent query about it affecting the metal composition, is because the subject is off this current topic and may detract from the present discussion. If you start another thread with this new subject I'm sure that I as well as others will be happy to discuss it and enlarge upon the subject. I suggest you call it

'Is the craft still the craft'.

[kusunokimasahige]

Will do !! Great idea.

 

See above for location of new discussion.

 

KM

[Tcat]

I come a little late to this, but many very interesting points have been raised in the discussion.

I am fairly optimistic in that I believe interest in Japanese swords outside of Japan will grow over the next 50 years, slowly but surely.

 

One main reason is supply and demand, there are a great many more people in the world today than there were 50 years ago, but the same number (actually fewer and fewer) antique Japanese swords. Pricing is now about as low as it has ever been at any point in the last 40 years (adjusted for inflation). The Japanese economy is poor, though even if it were to get worse I do not see the value of Nihonto dropping much further. There will always be rich and super rich collectors propping up the market, especially the high end.

Another point as mentioned is that there has been a greater dissemination of knowledge thanks to modern communications technology and media (the internet). Interest in and awareness of swords is thus boosted. There are other less obvious things happening too though…Japanese pop culture, partly due to the internet and partly due to various offerings (products, branding, film, animation, graphic novels) has changed from the alternative to thoroughly mainstream. As a result, authentic 'Japanness' is itself a commodity, of which Japanese swords form a good part. The post 80s/90s generation is aware of this but for the most part have not reached the age or financial stability to show a measurable interest, but I believe they are coming.

 

Also worth mentioning I think is that the micro culture of samurai, martial arts, 'budo', ninja, and representations thereof are now cultural icons in and of their own right. Again, they have transcended from the alternative to the mainstream. In the modern context, these themes stand alone and almost unrelated to other things Japanese. A ninja nowadays isn’t necessarily Japanese. Any modern comic book hero can wield a katana, regardless of his (or her) ethnic origin.

 

True quality and beauty in craftsmanship is timeless and not bound by cultural norms. Anyone with a 'good eye can appreciate Nihonto. Anyone who values the sleek production quality of a piece of high end modern consumer electronics such as the iphone can not help but appreciate a fine blade in polish, simply because of the crispness of lines, the precision of the work and play of the light. The fact that the crafts associated with Nihonto are all handicraft rather than machine built should add another level of fascination to the casual observer.

 

On new collectors and encouraging future generations to take up the path.

 

I think something very important to consider is that the path to collecting or serious interest in this field is dynamic and changes with the times. The route that young people may have taken 50 odd years ago to get where they are today regarding their interest in swords will almost certainly be different to those taken by young people entering this field post year 2000. I agree that the treasure hunting aspect is pretty much done for. No doubt that fact will have the effect of removing many would-be potential collectors from the foray, though sometimes it is easy to forget what exactly it was that brought us this far, what it was that helped develop the initial seed of interest into a hardy growth that stood the test of time. I remember handling a Japanese sword whilst still training in karate and aikido 10+ years ago, at the time Nihonto were of very little interest to me. Despite this, the fact is that today I understand that studying Japanese martial arts certainly forms the foundations of my current interest in Nihonto. So why was I not interested sooner? (That is a difficult question to answer and I wont try to do it here.) Suffice to say, I believe that serious interest in Nihonto is somewhat of an acquired taste, and there are numerous challenges to getting involved. At first the world of Nihonto seems impenetrably complex for a number of reasons - lack of English language learning material (though this is changing), lack of western experts (changing a little), consistent use of Japanese terminology, the prohibitively high cost of collecting quality work, the notorious and undeniably fickle nature of Nihonto enthusiasts, a perception that those who show a true interest are engaging in 'nutty fringe' elements (samurai sword fanatics! reenactors!), various governments' and the media’s tacit support for a negative attitude towards folk interested in weapons (even if ancient), the multitude of fakes and replicas on the market intended to remove money from naive newcomers, the monumental cost of restoration etc – the list is almost endless. And yet…we have young collectors among us here.

 

As Brian said, I think the survival of the art of the sword and sword related craftsmanship in Japan must be of greatest concern. I am both surprised and not surprised to learn that interest has fallen so much in Japan in recent years. Surprised because I would have thought that the traditionally patriotic tendencies of the Japanese might mitigate the alienating effects of modernity on interest in antiquities. However, despite a brief (and perhaps shameful) renaissance of interest in the sword during WW2, we find ourselves again in a situation where swords and their use are so far removed from daily life in Japan as to be almost foreign objects to the 21st century Japanese. Where outside of Japan there still exists some intrigue and mystery regarding 'samurai swords', inside Japan the academic pursuit of studying the craft is perhaps viewed by the young as rather stuffy and rigid, and culminating only in a dead end; there is very little money or social leverage to be had from it. The culture of instant gratification as previously mentioned clearly plays a role here also. Either way, the current lay of the land does not make for a situation that captures young people's imaginations the same way that historical legends, action films, animated series and graphic novels do – which is where I believe the future of this hobby rests – in the hands of storytellers actually outside the realms of the serious academic pursuit at the core of the Nihonto world.

 

Thoughts?

[runagmc]

I agree that media, in it's many forms, can and will play a big role in sparking the interest of younger people the same way it did for many of the people collecting today.

Most people will only have a passing interest, but some will become serious about studying and collecting.

[sanjuro]

Alex.

 

Are we really hoping to find new collectors as a result of popular (and totally nonfactual) media? What sort of collector is going to arise from the Ninja fringe dwellers and ludicrous film admirers, or the game console addicts. Sure, those things can be fun to watch or play, but as a medium for motivating someone to collect nihonto or less likely tsuba, I have to say I have serious doubts. How many people I wonder became interested as a result of watching 'The Last Samurai', or 'Red sun' or 'Ran' to name but a few? How many people ran out to buy books on nihonto after playing 'Red Ninja' or 'Tenchu'?

[Kam]

I dont think Japanese swords will lose appeal to the next generations and I do think their is a lot of merit in the idea that media esp through pop culture will help that. The big hurdle that a lot have pointed out to me and has been mentioned here is the culture of Nihonto enthusiast (esp actually mostly western enthusiasts). I will probably not make many friends with what I am about to say but the truth is newbies ignorance is often assaulted by old time enthusiasts arrogance making it somewhat oft putting. There is a large group of people outside of this world who enjoy owning and or collecting Nihonto but as they dont prescribe to the "rules" they often feel belittled by the self anointed elite. I am by no means saying that the rules are not there for a good reason I am just saying that the culture with a lot (not all) of serious enthusiasts is one of elitism and therefore the value of the rules is lost in transmission. Many like myself became interested in swords through Martial arts and many of the new young collectors I meet have followed the same path. So when I show them how to look for hataraki or explain that just like CSI we can find out who made it 500 years ago via the clues then it sparks an appreciation for the artistic elements and it is no longer just a "cool weapon". So maybe it is up to the current generation to make sure the next generation isnt scared off from over zealous collectors and if interest is born via Anime, movies or martial arts then at least the interest is still alive.

 

Kam

[cabowen]

There is no doubt that there is a certain elitist element. It also was the case 20-30 years ago in the West that one kept one's info close to the vest so that one didn't create one's own competition for "finds". You still see that to some extent....What I found though, was that many who were portrayed as knowledgeable (either by themselves or by others) weren't really keeping their vast knowledge a secret to cut down on the competition but were simply keeping their vast lack of knowledge a secret....

 

There is elitism in any hobby where the cost to participate is high. We see this in all fields. It is unfortunate and can indeed be counterproductive to the continuity of the hobby.

 

Sword collecting has always been a rich man's hobby in Japan, and still is today. By a twist of history, they became available to nearly anyone in the West for next to nothing for a good long time. Now that has pretty much ended and if one wants to participate at anything but a low level, one needs to either have amassed a collection back before prices caught up with Japan or have some depth to their pockets. Of course there is still the treasure hunting route wherein one trolls the various shark tanks hoping to find that treasure that everyone else has missed. That requires either an incredible amount of luck or an incredible amount of knowledge to be successful but someone always wins the lottery, so why not?