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Appraising, evaluating from photos, how reliable is it?


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This is not April the First, so this must be some kind of trolling, leg-pulling exercise. Either that or an attempt to gather more inside information for a second attempt at creating a better 'genuine' sword. It sounds to me as if a Chinese trader must be involved in this and his 'face' is on the line. Certainly someone stands to make or lose a lot of money here.

 

I also get the idea that someone just wants to receive some inside information on how nihonto collectors dieffer between a real nihonto and a fake.

Therefore I would suggest not to give the vendor more information on why people on the board think his blade is a fake. There is already enough said on this topic.

 

Cheers,

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Sorry guys, but I am opening this thread again for a few reasons. But I would like to ask people to remain polite, although they are free to express dismay, use humour or provide more proof. But no rudeness please.

I honestly believe that the current owners believe this item is real. If they were just knowingly trying to sell a fake, then they would have priced it at a few hundred thousand and quietly sold it to one of the new generations of Russian billionaires looking to put his cash somewhere. Experts will tell you that many high end swords are going to Russia.

Anyways, they would not have published it in Forbes and online if they knew it was a fake. Let's just assume that they are being led VERY VERY far astray by "experts" that know absolutely nothing about Nihonto but lots about art.

The first mistake is trying to evaluate Japanese swords like other art. They simply aren't. Paintings/statues/porcelain are a totally different field, where artists try any variation possible, and age is a big factor. In Japanese swords, the art lies in skills that no faker can duplicate. A 1000 year old tradition that relies on things beyond most comprehension. Every line perfect, the activity in the steel being unlike any other weapon ever made. It's not something we can even explain here...it takes many years of study to "get it" and even then, hundreds of books cannot simplify it to a short study.

Next mistake...trying to translate kanji and get to some essoteric meaning. The attempted translation is ludicrous....a joke. People who know nothing about swords try and translate kanji like that. It just doesn't work that way. They are signed a certain way, and come down to a name. Not some wierd and pieced together phrase meaning nothing. This is where your experts really get it wrong. Anyone familiar with Japanese swords can see the mei is meaningless and junk. It can not, does not, and never will be, a valid signature on a sword. The same on the fittings. They are not even signed with the correct tools in the correct way.

You seem to think that Japanese swords can have oddities like this since they are obviously art. Well..sorry, but they don't. They were always signed using the same technique...yours wasn't cut the right way..it was stamped..like using a screwdriver to stamp out kanji. How many times was this used over the centuries? NONE.

You cannot ask for statistics to prove something isn't fake. Forget about analysis and other mumbo jumbo. The fact is that the sword bears no resemblance to a real Japanese sword. People who know little about Nihonto might think it does...but no expert will ever tell you this is real.

I want this thread here in the open because I want someone to notify Forbes. I am confident enough in the member's opinions here that I am openly challenging your experts to send photos to any real Japanese sword society. In fact...send it off to Japan for shinsa, and if it passes, the forum will gladly pay all the expenses. If not...you agree to publicly announce the forum was right.

The main problem here is that you are using a standard "formula" to evaluate all forms of art. This is understandable, since Tamoikins is trying to sell their software that is designed to "stabilize and effectively regulate the market of art, antiquity and collectibles by providing tools and innovative systems to private and government organizations." and claims to "effectively register, code and track all - art, antiques and collectibles [ Movable Cultural Property] while perfectly integrating and improving currently accepted International Harmonized System Compliance" :roll:

 

There is an eighty million dollar fraud going on here...and unless someone stands up..some billionaire is going to fall for it with the help of Forbes.

If you are really serious about wanting to know the truth, publish your "expert" tests, and listen to our group of experts here who, strangely enough, all have the same opinion. There's a reason for that.

 

Brian

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Maybe the Chinese forger had a funny day at his workshop and knew what he was doing

but was sure that nobody ever will be able to read what he writes. :glee:

 

The "signature" (迌條毫又用佞信正圖) can be interpreted as:

 

"This [條] is by no means [毫] a tù/tou [迌, whatever that means, maybe "sword" in some dialect].

Moreover [又] it was made to [用] deceive [佞] and to defraud [圖] exactly [正] those who believe [信]."

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I for one find it hard to believe that Forbes magazine has allowed itself to be led into lending their name to this. One wonders if they were taken in by the scientific mumbo jumbo being touted as proof. Or even have they seen the reports that apparently exist but will not or cannot be made available to the public for some reason. Something about this, (in fact many things about this) smells distinctly fishy.

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Gentlemen,

 

I believe we are all missing the point. The sword in question is worth $80,000,000 because it proves that time travel is reality. Chinese forgers travel back in time, say by 6 centuries, leave a poorly made copy so it would pass all of the patented, Nobel-Prize-winning, secret-formula scientific tests of metal aging (rusting...) 6 centuries in the future. They forgot to send a linguist with their team, though. Ah, now everything seems to make sense to me.

 

Hoanh

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it appears to me the Forbes "article" is really just a paid advertisement. And the owners are trying to play it off as a real scientific article that has credibility since it is associated with the magazines name. I doubt Forbes cared what the ad said. It could have promoted a watch brand for all they cared.

 

And Forbes is by no means knowledgeable on Japanese swords. To pretend they are is also ridiculous.

 

It certainly isnt an article in National Geographic, or a Japanese publication. The whole thing is shaping up to be a scam. Why pick Forbes magazine to run that ad?

 

 

Chris

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It is my belief that the Tamoikin Institute will fight tooth and nail to prevent the truth around this one getting out. Purely because they are trying to market their art software to the world for what I am sure is millions of $'s, and to be proven having touted a fake, their entire system and expertise would be proven worthless.

What strengthens our case however, is the fact that they have everything to gain by passing this off as genuine..and everything to lose if we are correct. However, we have no dog in this fight. If the sword was genuine...it is to our advantage as collectors since our swords will increase in value. There is nothing to gain by us all working against the claims. No reason for us to dispute their findings except for the truth. The only explanation can be that we are 100% certain we are correct. Which we are.

 

Brian

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Exciting case... :shock:

 

...is there anything written, how they came to the appraisal of 80.000.000 USD?

Besides it is a fake, does anybody knows the motive why they publicise this sword with this abnormal price? It's so far away from reality...is Tamoikin a known organisation?

 

BTW I could afford it but maybe I'll invest in a Paul Chen blade of higher value...

mille.jpg

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I want this thread here in the open because I want someone to notify Forbes. I am confident enough in the member's opinions here that I am openly challenging your experts to send photos to any real Japanese sword society. In fact...send it off to Japan for shinsa, and if it passes, the forum will gladly pay all the expenses. If not...you agree to publicly announce the forum was right.

 

Forbes Magazine Contact

http://www.forbes.com/fdc/contact.html

 

Editorial

Send your comments to the Forbes Magazine.

readers@forbes.com

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No...

It will be stopped at JP Custom and exam by Authority.

If the sword doesn't get registered. It will be proven that the sword is fake at this stage before reaching to shinsa.

 

Official and Free examination. :glee:

 

the sword will be sending back to the sender. :phew:

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I wrote the editors of Forbes quite some time ago and had no reply or even any indication that they had received the message - It didn't come back so I assume it was received but >>?

 

IF some think its about the money why not do the same deal but sell it for 100 grand - 80 million makes it pretty incredible for most readers to even think about if they look at the market at all.

 

MAYBE - it is a joke :freak:

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Obviously this is aimed at the super rich. After all, $80,000,000 is hardly pocket money.

If the science (and I use the word very loosely) is so reliable and this is indeed a genuine nihonto, then why has it not been polished to show the features of the metal. Obviously, there is some reason, and that may well be that the blade has no features that would identify it even as Japanese let alone as a high quality nihonto. If the science is so reliable, then surely the best way to verify this and silence all critics is to have it polished and presented at Shinsa. Why has this not been done? because any kantei is going to prove this to be a fake.

 

So who would buy an overpriced, out of polish, unpapered blade on the strength of some hitherto unproven and possibly bogus science. No-one. I for one, dont think that the owner would sell this sword, hence the prohibitively high price. The first step any new owner would take is to verify the blade, and any attempted verification would prove it to be a fake. No..The sword is a vehicle to promote something of far higher value.

It isnt the sword that is ultimately for sale gentlemen, methinks its the software. One buyer for this software would net the Tamoikin syndicate far more in the long run than this pathetic fake. One sale to a large organisation involved in the antique market would in the longer term potentially benchmark the antique market, and ultimately inflate all antique and art prices.

 

Just a thought........ Paranoia perhaps????? Maybe I'm wrong :dunno:

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what happened to the original post about this blade? i know i saw the provocative $80,000,000 title recently, but i didn't even bother to click on it because the price alone suggested it was a joke.

 

but now that it's serious, i'd like to see the o.p.

 

was it deleted?

 

i'm particularly curious because the o.p. seems to be complaining about our appraisals via photograph, and i'm wondering what his original intent was in posting.

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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