GENDAITO BY KIYOKATSU

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Is it, that because you haven't seen one, they don't exist?

 

Sure but i have been told there are flying elephant and yet i've never seen one. i trust what i see or what is prooved, nothing else.

[Brian]

Stay on topic or I am closing this one down folks.

 

Brian

[george trotter]

Hi,

 

i trust what i see or what is prooved, nothing else.

 

Brian has instructed an adherence to logic. As we can sometimes have logic differentials between cultures a misunderstanding of another's logic is always possible.... so here goes one last attempt to understand how Jacques' logic works....

 

Jacques...

1. Members have posted the original Rikugun Jumei scheme instruction documents and the English translation. These prove that an RJT made sword must be made as a true gendaito to receive a star stamp.

2. The NTHK paper #561 of San Francisco Shinsa 2010 posted by a member proves that his star stamped blade has been appraised as gendaito.

Can I ask yoiu...

Did you see the documents?

Did you trust them?

Did they prove to you the star stamp means gendaito?

 

Or, are you still saying the star stamp means non-traditional showato?

 

Respectfully,

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

.

Members have posted the original Rikugun Jumei scheme instruction documents and the English translation. These prove that an RJT made sword must be made as a true gendaito to receive a star stamp.

 

Do you believe angels exit ? On what planet do you live ? Are you sure each swordsmith is honest enough to obey. A rule is a rule nothing more it can be applied or not. (Remember words of Kanefusa 24 dai).

 

The NTHK paper #561 of San Francisco Shinsa 2010 posted by a member proves that his star stamped blade has been appraised as gendaito

 

I provided a link showing that the NTHK NPO appraised a stamped showato as a gendaito, and SF is not in Japan. I always ask to see a NBTHK origami of star stamped sword. Chris Bowen says they are but untill now i never seen a single proof showing that they really exist.

 

A true gendaito does not bear any stamp (and they are easy to find).

[cabowen]

This topic has really run its course. George, try as you might, you can't change a closed mind. As I have said, Jacques hasn't the experience or knowledge to debate this topic. There in no harm in leaving him in his little corner of the stone age to cling to outdated misinformation. We, and I think most with some experience in this area, know better.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Gassan Sadaichi (Takateru, Sadateru), who became a Ningen Kokuho, was a RJT. I owned one of his star stamped blades shown below. I have also seen star stamped blades my Miyairi Akihira, who also a RJT before he became a Ningen Kokuho.

 

And ? These sword have got a NBTHK kanteisho ? They are showa-tô even if they were made by a Ningen Kokuho. They are made as militarian weapons like all showa-tô nothing else.

[Brian]

Ppl are allowed their opinions..we are not here to change minds. We present the facts..and then people must make up their own minds.

It took years for the Japanese to look at Gendaito differently. In another 20 years, I am sure there will be much more appreciation.

And in 100 years, they will be antiques.

I don't want any further attempts to convince either side of anything. Post the facts, and leave it at that. This is pointless.

 

Brian

[sencho]

I always ask to see a NBTHK origami of star stamped sword.

 

Seems like straightforward request; no matter what side of the fence you are on....

 

Cheers!

[cabowen]

 

Seems like straightforward request; no matter what side of the fence you are on....

 

Cheers!

 

As I have posted several times, there is a list of gendai tosho that have received kantei sho on Dr. Stein's site. Many were RJT. I have also posted several times about the star stamped blade I had papered at the NBTHK but have long since sold. I made this information public at least 15 years ago. Surely others are out there. There have been other organizations that have papered them as well, though Jacques has chosen to disregard one presented here, not based on the actual blade in question, but based on a blade they papered that he claims is a showa-to, though he has no evidence to prove this either.

 

Regardless, all the evidence supports the claim that the RJT program produced gendaito, from the army requirements to the smiths that made them, to the swords themselves. Today, this is the mainstream opinion among those I have talked to in Japan. Star stamped blades are importable as nihon-to while all other stamped blades are forbidden.

[Ed Harbulak]

About 10 or more years ago at one of the Chicago sword shows, there was a meibutsu room with a number of fine blades on display. One of those was a star stamped blade that had recnetly been papered by the NBTHK. I don't remember who the maker was, but I do remember hearing comments that seeing a papered star stamped blade pretty much verified that in general star stamped blades are traditionally made Japanese swords. Perhaps that was the blade you had papered Chris and later sold. Perhaps others memers of this formum remember the maker of that star stamped blade. I've owned three over the years and was convinced they were traditionally made just by examining the workmanship.

Ed Harbulak

[cabowen]

About 10 or more years ago at one of the Chicago sword shows, there was a meibutsu room with a number of fine blades on display. One of those was a star stamped blade that had recnetly been papered by the NBTHK. I don't remember who the maker was, but I do remember hearing comments that seeing a papered star stamped blade pretty much verified that in general star stamped blades are traditionally made Japanese swords. Perhaps that was the blade you had papered Chris and later sold. Perhaps others memers of this formum remember the maker of that star stamped blade. I've owned three over the years and was convinced they were traditionally made just by examining the workmanship.

Ed Harbulak

 

that one was made by MIyairi Akihira I believe.

 

I've owned three over the years and was convinced they were traditionally made just by examining the workmanship.

Ed Harbulak

 

Well, there is that, but the key, as you mention, is actually having the experience examining them.

[george trotter]

Jacques' responses point to an underlying issue about evidence... to him, original Japanese documents, NTHK papers and advanced collectors' experience count for nothing, ONLY a NBTHK paper is "proof". I know he was referring to a RJT made sword, but this logic must also mean that without the "proof" of a NBTHK paper a sword cannot be called a nihonto.

For the sake of discussion...does anyone else feel this way?

 

Regards,

[cabowen]

That is one of problems with his argument- if you follow it through, only swords papered by the NBTHK are nihon-to and only the NBTHK is qualified to make that distinction.

[Stu W]

Is there a distinction in terms of credibility between the NBTHK and the NTHK? I've seen swords papered by both and I realize that mistakes can be made but does one hold more value than the other to experienced collectors?

 

Regards,

Stu

[cabowen]

The NBTHK has been the gold standard, though their rep has suffered greatly due to lots of scandals. There are two NTHK groups. Neither the size of the NBTHK. I am affiliated with the NTHK-NPO. Judging by the number of blades they receive for submission in Japan, they seem to have a reasonable following.

[Stu W]

The NBTHK has been the gold standard, though their rep has suffered greatly due to lots of scandals. There are two NTHK groups. Neither the size of the NBTHK. I am affiliated with the NTHK-NPO. Judging by the number of blades they receive for submission in Japan, they seem to have a reasonable following.

 

Thank you for that prompt response. Does the NBTHK hold shinsa in North America and if so now often? How about the NTHK AND NTHK-NPO? If memory serves me there is a shinsa associated to the San Fran show each August. I have not yet attended that show but it is on my To Do list for 2013. Bye the way, on that topic, is the Marriott the best place to stay or do repeat attendees stay elsewhere?

 

Regards,

Stu

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

very interesting reading :

 

I received the document cited by Morita san which addresses the manufacturing requirements specified by the army to contract smiths (Jumei Tosho) for making commissioned officer's gunto. Thank you very much Morita san....

 

I do not have the time to translate this document verbatim as it is written in the older style Japanese which is very difficult for me to read. I have enough trouble with the modern language! I summarized the main points however and share them below.

 

First, though, let me say that this Jumei Tosho program was launched by the military in Showa 17 as a way to standardize and quality control the gunto made for commissioned officers. Prior to this programs there were all types of swords being made, from fully traditional to western steel/oil quenched Showa-to to mantetsu-to, yasuki-tetsu-to, murata-to, denki-tetsu-to, etc. This was an attempt to organize, standardize, and provide a uniform level of quality. Concepts dear to the hearts of Japanese bureaucrats....

 

 

Key Points From the Article "Commissioned Officer's Gunto Manufacturing Specifications"

 

The blade was to be made with tamahagane and hochogane using charcoal. The smiths were required to use their best skill in forging and hardening the blades such that they would be tough and strong. They should cut well and be especially strong against blows from the side and to the mune. The carbon content of the hagane and shingane was specified to be in the following range: hagane: 0.5-0.7% carbon; shingane: 0.05-0.25% carbon.

 

The shape and dimensions of all parts of the sword blade were specified and a drawing/blueprint existed (not in the original article) which illustrated these dimensions. The sori, mihaba, size of the kissaki, mei, nakago length, weight, etc. were all specified. The shape of the hamon was left up to the smith but was not suppose to be more than medium width. The nakago was to be properly finished with a mei and date inscribed. The blade was to be flat with moderate hamaguri. Shinogi-zukuri with tori-zori.

 

Swords were made in three length and weight catagories, all with a nakago of 7 sun in length.

 

small:2.0〜2.1尺　　731.25〜768.75 grams

medium:2.1〜2.2尺　　768.75〜806.25 grams　

large:2.2〜2.3尺　　806.25〜843.75 grams

 

Latitude was given as far as the shape and length of the blade but the weight specification was strictly enforced.

 

When the blades were received by the arsenal, they were tested and visually inspected:

 

The blades were struck forcefully from the side with an 80 mm steel pipe. They should bent less than 60 degrees and not break. The also tested the cutting ability on two 10 cm diameter bundles of straw and a mild steel plate that was 2mm thick, 1 cm wide. The blade should not show a kirikomi more than 2 cm, and should not have hakobore or bend.

 

The appearance of the blade was inspected. The blade should, in general, be well balanced with the length, shape, and weight within the tolerances of the regulation. The blade should not have hakobore, kizu in the ji, or breaks in the hamon or other harmful kizu.

 

A few personal comments:

 

My understanding was that these tests were done to the two test blades which a smith would submit in application to become a Jumei Tosho. I do not think they tested every blade made afterwards under contract....

 

The article makes no mention of the star stamp but I have heard from several Jumei Tosho that the star stamp was placed on their blades when they were accepted by the army. All star stamp blades I have seen were made by smiths in the Jumei Tosho program...

 

Swords made by Jumei Tosho that do not have a star stamp were made for private sale by the smith.

 

I hope this helps to understand the star stamp and the Jumei Tosho system.

 

 

I have just a little question, are the persons who checked blades made by RJT experts about Nihontô ?

 

This sentence is very important : My understanding was that these tests were done to the two test blades which a smith would submit in application to become a Jumei Tosho. I do not think they tested every blade made afterwards under contract....

[george trotter]

(I will probably regret responding to this but...)

Jacques,

before I respond to your questions, can I ask you...

1. will you say who wrote the information you are posting here?

2. do you believe what it says?

 

Thanks,

[Brian]

Jacques,

This is getting ridiculous now. The documents clearly state the standards and prove that RJT smiths had to forge Nihonto as we define them. That is clear, and that is what they were ordered to manufacture.

I really don't give a toss that there might be loopholes a crooked smith might exploit to get a Showato through the process. That would have been corrupt and probably illegal, and the exception does not disprove the rule.

Really...this is pathetic. You seem to be trying to disprove an entire class of sword by proving that someone could fake one or 2. By that token, no driver's license is valid as they can be bought...in fact just about anything that is legislated can be bought or corrupted.

This has gone far past educational and info the ridiculous.

 

Brian

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

will you say who wrote the information you are posting here?

 

 

Chris Bowen himself.

 

do you believe what it says

 

I should not believe him even if he contradicts himself ?

 

 

Brian,

 

The documents clearly state the standards and prove that RJT smiths had to forge Nihonto as we define them

 

 

And ? a rule is a rule, the question is : Did all RJT followed strictly that rule ? We all know RJT used traditionnal and non traditionnal raw material for the simple reason there was a great need in swords and that all smiths were *requisitioned* to satisfy the needs. As i said a sword stamp on a blade means it was made by a RJT and not necessarily a true gendaitô.

 

Saying i'm ridiculous will not make you right. Try to be a little bit more rational and less credulous.

[george trotter]

Well, I've had enough...goodbye Jacques!

[cabowen]

I didn't write the rules Jacques, I wasn't born until many years after the war, making my residence in Japan in 1942 difficult. I know you can't read Japanese. If you don't believe George's translation of the Japanese documents provided from the Japanese source by Morita san is correct, have it translated by a professional. It is contained in the pdf link Brian posted. It has also been translated and posted in sections on Omura san's site.

 

To become a RJT, a smith submitted two blades which were then tested. If the blades passed a very rigid and difficult series of tests, the smith was accepted into the program. The smith made blades which were collected each month and they were ALL visually inspected by an expert, as I have said. Yoshihara Kuniie was one such inspector in the Tokyo area (this has been published previously by myself, as well as Paul Martin in his article on the Yoshihara family available on the UK Token site). Blades were also randomly tested as stated in the rules.

 

We all do not know that RJT used non-traditional materials. Please give your sources for your statements that RJT used non-traditional materials as I have never seen any evidence of this, which would be in direct contradiction of the army rules.

 

When in a hole, the best thing to do it to stop digging.

 

Oh, and please tell us which blades are showa-to in the other thread posted. I have no doubt that your expertise in this area will prove enlightening to the other members...

[Jacques D.]

Mister Bowen

 

Please be clear with yourself

 

You said :

 

My understanding was that these tests were done to the two test blades which a smith would submit in application to become a Jumei Tosho. I do not think they tested every blade made afterwards under contract....

 

The article makes no mention of the star stamp but I have heard from several Jumei Tosho that the star stamp was placed on their blades when they were accepted by the army. All star stamp blades I have seen were made by smiths in the Jumei Tosho program...

 

And now :

 

The smith made blades which were collected each month and they were ALL visually inspected by an expert, as I have said.

 

 

Topic closed for me.

[Bruno]

Jacques,

 

I think Chris meant that once a smith's blade passed the RJT rigid test, then the other blades this same smith provided during the following months were just visually inspected. This because the smith alreay proved his skills, no need to take the same rigid test for each blade.

[george trotter]

Bruno, I have heard this said before also, but I am not so sure if it is correct.

Reading the words of the Regulations carefully it says:

 

Article 1. "The drawings and writings at left describe the specifications for the manufacture and polishing of each blade to be delivered/supplied".

 

Article 4.

1. "Compliance examinations will be conducted...the first test will be for cutting ability. At that time a second test for appearance (by an experienced polisher) will be conducted. In conformity with government examination for quality testing and materials testing, eligible swords will be selected at their discretion from those submitted to conduct sharpness tests and external appearance inspection".

2. this describes the bend test.

4. this describes the cutting tests (2).

 

I don't think this regulation is describing the testing of the swords offered by the applicant swordsmiths to the RJ scheme as this says that the swords are taken at discretion for testing...applicant's swords would have all been tested already?. These regulations seem to apply to the RJ scheme as it operates (but I may be wrong). From what is said of testing it seems that these terms apply to each blade delivered, but, as it says that swords will be selected at the inspectors discretion, I think that not every blade was tested, but by the chance of testing being present, the RJTosho would make every blade at the high level so that could pass the tests if selected.

While the Regulations don't mention the star stamp it is well known that the star stamp means an RJT inspection stamp as it only appears on swords of smiths who are recorded in the RJ scheme.

So, I think the testing was probably random, but was done in order to keep the standards high.

 

This is just my reading of the regulations.

Regards,

[SwordGuyJoe]

Jacques,

Testing is not the same thing as inspecting. Testing includes cutting. Inspecting includes looking. Imagine how dangerous the Tampa show would be if testing and inspecting were the same as you imply because most people like to inspect before they buy.

[cabowen]

I have been both clear and consistent. The problem seems to be your confusion with the terms test and inspect.

 

Two swords were submitted by a RJT candidate smith to the Army. The army tested these per the above. If they passed, the smith was accepted into the program.

 

Each month, the blades the smith made for the program were collected, VISUALLY inspected, and if they passed this VISUAL inspection, they were stamped with a star and accepted by the Army. The inspectors were sword experts (mostly senior, trained, well known smiths).

 

Blades that passed inspection per the above were then chosen randomly on occasion for TESTING by the Army. That is called "quality control".

 

I figured you would run rather than admit you have no evidence of RJT ever using materials other than those specified by the Army. In fact, the only thing you have provided to support your contention that all stamped blades are showa-to is a second hand quote from an out of date publication by someone who wasn't even of age during the war. You have no personal experience with RJT blades to draw on nor have you ever spoken to any RJT to obtain any first hand information. You haven't cited any period literature sources. You offer only some twisted logic based on not seeing any NBTHK kantei-sho. Sorry Jacques, but sometimes it is better to remain silent....

[george trotter]

I have been both clear and consistent. The problem seems to be your confusion with the terms test and inspect.

 

Two swords were submitted by a RJT candidate smith to the Army. The army tested these per the above. If they passed, the smith was accepted into the program.

 

Each month, the blades the smith made for the program were collected, VISUALLY inspected, and if they passed this VISUAL inspection, they were stamped with a star and accepted by the Army. The inspectors were sword experts (mostly senior, trained, well known smiths).

 

Blades that passed inspection per the above were then chosen randomly on occasion for TESTING by the Army. That is called "quality control".

 

 

I agree, what you say conforms to what is explained in the Regulations we posted and what I have been told personally by RJT families in Osaka in 1980. The Regulations are explaining how the scheme operates on a day-to-day basis, not just on the Applicant's submission swords.

 

I will probably get into trouble for this, but IMHO a star stamp is really all you need to be guaranteed of nihonto and shoshin for those swords we pick up from veteran's estates in Australia, USA, UK. These are definitely genuine nihonto. ONLY if the sword comes out of Japan and has passed through the hands of dealers should you need it shinsa'd to make sure it is not a fake star stamp or in some way gimei.

So Jacques, under these conditions a star is the equivalent of NBTHK paper.

Regards,

[cabowen]

Let's remember that Homma and Ishii used, included. and cited, the RJT Meibo (List of RJT) as a source for their Nihon-to Meikan, which is a list of traditional sword smiths.....By its inclusion, they are implicitly stating that the program produced traditionally made blades.

[chrisf]

Jacques,perhaps you would like to explain the difference between an art saber and a simple weapon?Not a trick question,I just wondered if you realised that all Japanese swords were made as weapons and not as works of art and that the term 'art sword' was devised in the aftermath of WW2 (when thousands of swords of all types were destroyed by being shovelled into furnaces) in order to protect and conserve remaining swords as a part of Japan's cultural heritage.