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GENDAITO BY KIYOKATSU


J Reid

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Hi all,

thanks for the kind words to Morita san and myself for the RJT docs (please be aware that the lack of spaces between some words was a result of file conversion? - not my bad grammar :lol:)

 

Matt, you raise an interesting point on the "quality" of RJT compared with "art" swords. I here express my own opinion. Although I promote RJT I am not one to claim that RJT are "art" swords or equal to any previous age in matters of beauty, desireability, level of excellence (chu-saku etc)...I collect them for what they are...a very important, documented, group of working swords produced with diligence and honesty by the swordsmiths of Japan in a time of national emergency. Some are very beautiful and some are very "ordinary", but all are important as, IMHO, these swords possess something that no shinto or shinshinto sword possesses...they were actually the first "group" of swords produced for their intended purpose since the Sengoku Jidai.

All shinto/shinshinto are IMHO "art" swords...not made and immediately sent out for this fighting purpose, but made as adornments, just as shinsakuto have been since 1954..."art" for the connoisseur, not weapon for the soldier. You only have to look at the superior swords from this shinto/shinshinto period in Japanese texts...made for Lord so and so, made for so and so shrine, they were ordered by rich people for status from status makers. Good swords yes, and capable of good cutting (though many failed on WWII battlefields...see Ohmura)...but not day to day weapons and never intended to be. Yes many chu-saku swords were worn by the samurai who were trained in kenjutsu, but in reality these were by then a "social middle class"...ALL government employees...clerks and administrators. I have owned Jo-saku shinto blades and they were beautiful, but I would rather collect RJT (don't get me wrong, if I found a Shinkai at a garage sale for $12 I would buy it).

 

We in the west already recognise the importance of this RJT group of swords and slowly, the Japanese will follow suite as they have with Yasukunito. It is not really a matter (for me) of ranking as I don't care that much for papers, nor do I care that these swords will probably always be chu-saku...it does not matter...it is their historical importance for me...I even prefer them to still be in their WWII polish...(yes I know...yikes!). I collect for myself and I don't really mind what the "art world critic" thinks. Just one last point..RJT are "different" from Akihide, Shigetsugu etc as these men were the "saviours" of the modern sword making world, they produced very fine swords that are revered in the "art world" for their quality, but just as much for their attachment to the important role of their makers in saving the craft in modern times...these RJT (so far ignored by them) are the practical, fighting swords of their many students...I love 'em!

Just a personal view...hope I don't sound too crazy!

Regards,

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It bears keeping in mind that although RJT made blades for the military under contract and not for "art's" sake, many of these tosho who were in the program were also top rated smiths who made blades privately as well and are highly regarded for the quality of their blades. While some clearly didn't put the same amount of effort into the military made blades, some made no distinction and the star stamped blades by these smiths are on par with their outside work.

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Jacques,

I see from your answers to my 4 earlier questions that there is no way for you to know or prove that your koto and shinto swords could be capable of passing the strict RJT tests. I don't mean to be impolite, but saying "koto and shinto" and "papered blades" and "easily recognizable" is neither to know nor prove anything about strength/quality of the blade.

In contrast (as we have been saying) those who own RJT swords, can both know and prove that their blades are capable of passing the RJT tests because we have the RJT regulation documents, the lists of RJT smith names and the "passed RJT inspection" star stamped on these swords. This is plain logic. In addition, because of these known factors, we can know that the blade is nihonto...traditionally made using traditional material.

 

Your last comment there, that "these blades" being Showa-to are therefore banned from Japan as military swords leads to a question...did you read the RJT regulations document Brian posted?...and did you read the NTHK papers? Can I ask again...what do you think the star stamp signifies?

 

Respectfully,

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Hi,

 

don't mean to be impolite, but saying "koto and shinto" and "papered blades" and "easily recognizable" is neither to know nor prove anything about strength/quality of the blade.

 

I think we are speaking of different things, you want to compare a VW golf with a Jaguar or a Rolls Royce. I have a strong interest in art sword, not in militaria artefacts which are just utilitarian objects (in this case Mantetsu are good blades).

 

Some nihontô are used during the WW2 they never need to pass tests.

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George, you are wasting your time discussing RJT blades with someone who self-admittedly has handled but one. He hasn't the experience or knowledge necessary to contribute anything meaningful to their discussion or to debate their merits or demerits from an informed perspective.

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All shinto/shinshinto are IMHO "art" swords...not made and immediately sent out for this fighting purpose, but made as adornments

 

Hello all.. I've often thought about the above belief ,but even in peaceful times there must have been utilitarian bushi. Consider all the inner conflicts and then in the late edo the threat of foreign invaders. Plus I can't imagine the entire bushi class (or the smiths) forgetting the intended purpose of that Sharp peice of steel they are holding (or forging) is.

 

Just a thought..

 

Respectfully,

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I think that those discussion has been going for a long time in Japan as well.

 

A lot of sword lovers in Meiji period were loving Only Ko-to, They were talking Shinto (Ara-mi) as a weapon or toy.

Only Ko-to were the object to love...

and Others were treating as a functional weapon.

Baron Murata Tsuneyoshi (Major General) and Inventor of Murata gun, were testing all kind of Mei-to.

He listed Seki-Magoroku-Kanemoto, Nosada, Mihara-Masaie 4th, Bizen-Hidemitsu, Motoshige, Sendai-Kunikane and Kotetsu.

He was trying to collect 100 Magoroku, but, after 65, he decided to spend his budget of last 35 for creating stronger (better) modern (Meiji) sword.

That is the concept of Gun-to.

I think that is same as all generation of sword making. Tokugawa was busy with importing and developing new material as well.

 

When time goes, and value would change....

 

in Meiji period, Tatara-Nagayuki katana was 5 times more expensive than Kiyomaro katana....

And Now, Kiyomaro is 5-10 time more than Tatara-nagayuki(choko) !!!

 

Maybe 15-20 years ago,

Yasukuni-to was only a bit sepecial more than other Gunto,

Japanese sword collectors were not recognizing as a Japanese sword.

but, now !?

Same as Start Stamp sword.

The material (Tamahagane. Hocho-tetsu and charcoal) for Star stamp were providing from Army, and quality were also controlled.

They were mentioning Ha-niku (hamaguri-ba) as well !!

 

NBTHK issue Hozon paper for Hand forged traditional blade, after the smith passed away....

when you see Hada, and Nie in Hamon (no-nie in oil tempered hamon) is meaning Traditional Blade which could receive Hozon paper.

They were Standard sword, but, still different in quality, which we(sword lover) want to judge by our own eye ( or by testing ! ).

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George, you are wasting your time discussing RJT blades with someone who self-admittedly has handled but one. He hasn't the experience or knowledge necessary to contribute anything meaningful to their discussion or to debate their merits or demerits from an informed perspective.

 

:clap:

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Well, sad to say, but you guys are right...it seems he has chosen his position...fine by me.

 

This has been an interesting thread....I am pleased we posted the original RJT scheme documents...it is important to have the facts "in our NMB library" to counter the mis-information that always circulates when people are unsure.

 

Kunitaro san...it was interesting to read your comments also...

Can I ask...Are RJT blades becoming discussed in Japan yet? (as Yasukunito became discussed and respected from 20 years ago).

Do you know of RJT blades in Japanese collections?

 

Regards,

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HI,

 

George, you are wasting your time discussing RJT blades with someone who etc....

 

I'm wasting my time too discussing with someone unable to make the difference between an art sword and a simple weapon. I add have the same point of view with kazu-uchi mono; weapon not art.

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George san,

Yes, there is a lot of Gunto collectors,

However, as soon as the item become valuable, someone start to make fake.

Yasukuni-to, RJT and gendai(shinsaku)-to, etc.

 

Jacques san,

It is very good that you compare Cars and Swords.

I think that they are very similar object of interest nowadays and Samurai time.

we all can talk about cars with basic knowledge, but Japanese swords !?!?

 

Also, it is good that you put up "Kazuuchimono".

There is always Kazuuchimono (mass products) in all period.

Koto through Shinto, Shinshinto time as well.

I think that Star stamp were the stamp for separating from Kazuuchimono,( such as machine made mono-steel blades etc).

and there is very well made sword and fair made pieces, because they are hand made.

so, i am sure there is some super well made sword which will be appreciated and preserved next hundred years.

we want to recognize them.

 

I think that The purpose of studying is to recognize the quality of sword which is meaning to recognize a master piece, workshop piece and mass products. and recognize the quality of each pieces.

 

BTW, you posted an oshigata (of Nobuhide) at "Kiyomaro school",

What is the book you were reading ??

 

Best

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Jacques san

Thank you very much, I don't have the book. sorry, but, i will write about work of Akitada at "Kiyomaro school? later.

 

And I think there is some very well made star stamp blade, maybe better than late koto-kazuuchimono.

 

I think that Art of sword is Art of Function.

I wish that the sword smith stays as a sword smith and the owner of the sword stay as a Samurai, not an artist and an art collectors.

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I have been following this topic with great interest. As a Gendaito collector, I have a vested interest in the quality of Genaito. I have several swords made by RJT registered smiths, however, none have any stamps. Saying that, I have seen some swords with the star stamp, owned by friends. I must say that these swords, are every bit as good (art wise) as most of the unstamped RJT swords that I own.

Untill recently, I didn't understand the true meaning of the Star Stamp. If it hadn't been for Morita San and Chris Bowen, sharing their information, I may still have been in the dark. I would be happy to own the Star stamped swords belonging to my friends and hope, that they have me on the top of their lists when and ever they decide to sell. Every sword era, has it's pros and cons. Some people only believe that the true Nihonto, is Koto. Others have a penchant for Shinto, etc. There will always be detractors

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I first started researching star stamped blades in earnest about 20 years ago after buying one made by Tsukamoto Okimasa. I was able to speak directly with several RJT who all told me the same story-that they were traditionally made under military contract with traditional materials. After hearing this, I started searching through period publications available at the National Diet Library in Tokyo, as well as those in the possession of former RJT smiths (like Miyairi Akihira, Enomoto Sadayoshi, Kato Kanekuni, Kato Tsunehira, Yoshihara Kuniie, etc.), polishers, and others. I was able to locate all the information necessary to conclude that what I was hearing from the former RJT was absolutely true. I also kept an eye out for other star stamped blades and noticed that they all appeared to be traditionally made. With the first person accounts, the literature, and the swords themselves all in agreement, I was comfortable concluding that these star stamped swords were indeed Nihon-to. I began spreading the results of this research thereafter, mostly on the token_kenkyu_kai email chat group that I started. I am happy to know that the time spent has benefited others.

 

Soon afterwards, one member of the chat group challenged my assertion with the same quote by Yoshihara Yoshindo that Jacques has thrown out. In reply I offered to submit the blade to the NBTHK for proof it was in fact Nihon-to. The rest is indeed history,

 

Star stamped blades are still rather unknown in Japan. Few are old enough to know the significance. Much like the Yasukuni-to, the stigma of everything to do with the war tends to cloud people's judgment and dampen interest. It has long been said that stamps on the nakago mean a blade is a showa-to. It is far easier to make sweeping generalizations than to actually do homework. It took articles published by Fujishiro, no less, to finally open collector's eyes in Japan to the history and quality of Yasukuni-to. Given the prejudice in Japan to WWII era blades, I suspect it will be the West that will jar the door on the RJT work.

 

I had several arguments when trying to import star stamped blades into Japan. I started to carry along a copy of the sword statutes and documents describing the RJT program. Many shinsa'in were surprised to learn that they were indeed traditionally made blades. All were admitted into Japan.

 

To be sure, not all star stamped blades are of excellent quality and like all swords, it is always a case by case judgment. The star does separates them from the pack and should provide one with a signal that one should pay attention.

 

To dismiss out of hand anything one hasn't any meaningful knowledge or experience with is simple narrow minded ignorance. Life is far too short to waste time on such people. Enough said on that, as someone else has succinctly stated.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Kunitaro san comment concerning smiths as craftsman and owners samurai. I believe this is extremely insightful.... I met many many smiths in Japan. It was very interesting to compare and contrast the attitudes and behavior of the elder to the younger. Almost without exception, those who had worked during WWII and lived through the war and struggled in the aftermath, looked at themselves as simple craftsman, making a tool, albeit a sacred and special tool. They were humble and without airs; they let their craftsmanship do the talking. They were, to the man, genuinely surprised that I had made the effort to track them down to talk about something no one else had ever expressed any interest in. They were true shokunin, of the type discussed in the classic "The Unknown Craftsman" by Yanagi, and deferred when I suggested they made great art....

 

In contrast, those brought up in the environment of "bijutsu token", were often "artists" with all that entails, a stark contrast to their shokunin elders. Whether it was growing up in a Japan that can say no or the new, postwar image of the sword as high art, or just bad luck on my part, I can't say, But there was a clear difference in attitude and character across the generations among many of the postwar smiths I met.

 

The Rikugun Jumei Tosho put their heart and soul into their work. Many were talented smiths who's work is not embarrassed in comparison to that of any period. When one actually comes across a top quality example, it will demonstrate the meaning of the phrase "a good sword is timeless"...

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Well said Chris...excellent analysis on the value of practical research and the values of Shokunin in war and "Artists" in peace. To each his own of course, but I know which I prefer.

 

I also read the comments of Kunitaro san with great interest. It is clear that the Japanese collector is starting to recognis and respect RJT blades. It is good that the star stamp is perhaps slowly being recognised in Japan as the mark that shows the sword is NOT showto. Some of these makers are already known as superior tosho and their works and that of other RJT will be slowly increasing in appreciation. I know that no dealer ever had one in his shop whenever I asked about them....but we can only patiently wait for the knowledge to spread.

 

On the subject of quality of RJT and other military swords, I read somewhere that Gassan Sadakatsu d.1943 was listed as RJT although I have not seen his name with a star (anyone?). His work was often purchased or presented to high ranking military officers and I do know that his father Sadakazu d.1918 made a sword for the Army Department that was presented to Emperor Taisho....so the work must be good in military swords as well as art swords

On the question of Soshu style that was asked... Both Sadakazu, his son Sadakatsu and his son Sadamitsu (later Takateru later Sadaichi 2) worked in Soshu style so I suppose it is possible to find work in this style in a military sword (as was asked about here). I haven't looked but you might find evidence if you google Gassan smiths.

 

Again on quality, I have seen both stamped and unstamped swords by several RJT smiths ...in some case they are the same quality and in others the unstamped seems "nicer" to me....all were very good but in one case (Nakata Kanehide) two swords were both identical except for hamon (1 gonome the other choji with long ashi): the stamped one was "perfect" and the unstamped one was ha-gire...so as both were the same date I would say the RJT scheme inspection was effective and strict and was done after polishing as the ha-gire would probably not have become visible before this...(how the ha-gire got into the field I can only wonder about!!!)...and it might also be relevent to say that in some cases with these WWII smiths, the hamon style and yasuri style was distinctly different between wartime military swords and their postwar art swords....whether this reflects a change from military regulations or a "new age" change which occurs with tosho in different stages of their life I can't say for sure...maybe a bit of both.

Regards,

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Gassan Sadaichi (Takateru, Sadateru), who became a Ningen Kokuho, was a RJT. I owned one of his star stamped blades shown below. I have also seen star stamped blades my Miyairi Akihira, who also a RJT before he became a Ningen Kokuho.

 

post-1462-14196844818693_thumb.jpg

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Great stuff Chris...who can still say that RJT star stamp automatically means showato...thanks for posting (I didn't think to check Rich Stein's site).

 

Edit to add comment: You are right of course when you say that some RJT vary in quality and that this is true of all swords...I agree, I have also seen a small number of RJT blades that I thought adequate, but not remarkable (mainly in beauty as all seemed well forged)...so the basic rule that we must always examine each sword on merit always applies, but certainly, the star is a clear marker that here is a sword worth looking at closely.

Regards,

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at one time, i owned this RJT blade by Sukenobu. very nice hada with swirls of mokume. seemed obviously made using traditional methods.

 

http://nihontoantiques.com/fss260.htm

 

the funny thing was, looking at the nakago (hard to tell from this photo), i always had the impression that a stamp might have been removed...

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Although I promote RJT I am not one to claim that RJT are "art" swords or equal to any previous age in matters of beauty, desireability, level of excellence

 

so, i am sure there is some super well made sword which will be appreciated and preserved next hundred years. we want to recognize them.

 

Maybe one thing missing from the equation is that many RJT swords are not in "art" polish. I appreciate the specification document highlights a proper polish, but many I've seen had a typical WWII-type polish (i.e. not always crisp lines, low to no nugui use, basic sashikomi, etc). And several others I have handled are not in any polish at all since they've been left to the elements for 70 years.

 

If RJT get proper restoration then that might allow for more exploration of their craftmanship on an "apples to apples" basis with older swords that have had proper restoration. It is a lot easier to appreciate craftsmanship when its elements have been highlighted. It would make identifying the super well made RJT a lot easier.

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Hi Joe,

it is most probably a military sword, but maybe not RJT made as the regulations state that RJT must sign and date their swords...but as we all know you can never say never or never say always with nihonto.

Regards,

 

sukenobu is listed as RJT in dr. stein's site (actually, there are two, but only one "noshu ju sukenobu").

 

another blade posted by moses -- the jigane and hada seem strikingly similar and the mei seems to match -- also claims RJT:

 

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss162.htm

 

though as you can see, while there is a date on that one, neither have a star stamp. anyway, i could be wrong, but i was just raising the question of whether some folks may have been removing stars for a while due to the stigma, while now they may be back in vogue.

 

funny how this saga matches one of dr. suess' greatest stories and life lessons:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3yJomUhs0g

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I think that Art of sword is Art of Function.

I wish that the sword smith stays as a sword smith and the owner of the sword stay as a Samurai, not an artist and an art collectors.

 

Great comment. :clap:

 

I think its worth adding that the RJT specification document addresses a swords ability to cut well and not bend or break before addressing polish and appearance.

 

Baron Murata Tsuneyoshi (Major General) ...

He was trying to collect 100 Magoroku, but, after 65, he decided to spend his budget of last 35 for creating stronger (better) modern (Meiji) sword.

 

I think Baron Murata Tsuneyoshi must have been a connoisseur if he collected 65 Magoroku. He also had this to say: http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_110.htm (google translate gives a general idea that he was a proponent of swords that cut well and do not bend or break)

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Yes, a Sukenobu was RJT (this one?) but as this had no date I don't think made in RJ scheme? You are probably right about stars being removed...they will come to regret it in later years I think.

 

Fair comment on polishing Matt,

I know that knowledgeable collectors here advise a re-polish using up-to-date techniques (which I think includes mainly hadori), so that the true quality of the work is brought out.

For me (old geezer type) who grew up surrounded by WWII sashi-komi polished blades, it is a bit of a shock to see 1940s dated blades in hadori...in fact on my first visit to Japan 1980 I was shocked and disappointed to see so many hadori polished old blades in National Museums...I suppose this is the norm now.

I have one RJ Tosho blade (unstamped) that has ORIGINAL WWII hadori polish and while I acknowledge that the hamon is probably too complex for sashi-komi, I find I look at it less than my other blades...but this is just me...I am a product of my time.

On polish, I must say that all but one of my WWII blades are in 90-98% polish...certainly of a good standard sashi komi and I feel no need to re-polish as the craftsmanship is well evident. The poor one is well deserving of a re-polish, but I am hesitant as those re-polishes I have seen of WWII blades were IMHO not as good as the original, in terms of the weakening of features I could previously see (but this may be due to "taking off a layer" in the re-polish).

I will admit that two of my RJT smith swords (same makers, one unstamped) have the same quality polish (nagashi lines etc) but I find the parallel lines a bit "undulating", so in this respect, it is possible that the RJ scheme inspection has accepted a lower standard...these would both benefit from a re-polish I think...but as the polish is in good condition I am able to bear the "undulations'.

This is just my own experience.

Regards,

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It is doubtful many of Sadakatsu's blades were made for the military as he had plenty of customers and certainly didn't need the work. He most likely felt an obligation to contribute to the war effort in the best way he knew how. It should go without saying that it is almost certainly a daisaku blade. This star stamped Gassan blade is a very useful and important reference.

 

As far as polishing is concerned, without a doubt the war era polishes leave much to be desired. I have had 4 or 5 star stamped blades polished and the transformation in all cases was night and day. The Tsukamoto was in reasonable war era polish when I bought it. When I gave it to my togishi, he rolled his eyes and said, "well, it is your money"...While it was in process, he called me several times (which was very unusual) to tell me how surprised he was and that I going to be very happy with it. When he brought it over I was indeed thrilled and made him eat his words. I had several others polished (Gassan Sadateru, Yoshihara Kuniie, Tomida Sukehiro, and a few others I don't recall) and in every case the end result was rather stunning. Of course this applies to all quality WWII era blades, and not just those of the RJT. Most war era polishes were rather rapid, rushed affairs that don't come close to doing a quality blade justice. Many have commented after seeing these swords that they had no idea of the quality being produced in this era. Surely the poor polishes have contributed something to the negative opinion one finds about WWII era blades.

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