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Do you use your nihonto for tameshigiri?


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When Mahomet proclaimed that "the sword is the key of Heaven and of Hell," he only echoed a Japanese sentiment.

It is interesting to see the total lack of historic knowledge of the author of this book.

 

But to be on the safe side, let me check something...

 

Arabic:

 

الله أكبر الله اكبر

 

الله أكبر فوق كيد المعتدي

الله للمظلوم خير مؤيدي

أنا باليقين وبالسلاح سأفتدي

بلدي ونور الحق يسطع في يدي

قولوا معي قولوا معي

الله الله الله أكبر

الله فوق المعتدي

 

 

God is greatest! God is greatest!

And God is greatest above plots of the aggressors,

And God is the best helper of the oppressed.

With faith and with weapons I shall defend my country,

And the light of truth will shine in my hand.

Say with me! Say with me!

God, God, God is greatest!

God is above any attacker.

 

يا هذه الدنيا أطلي واسمعي

 

جيش الأعادي جاء يبغي مصرعي

بالحق سوف أرده وبمدفعي

وإذا فنيت فسوف أفنيه معي

قولوا معي قولوا معي

الله الله الله اكبر

الله فوق المعتدي

 

 

Oh this world, watch and listen:

The enemy came coveting my position,

I shall fight with Truth and defences

And if I die, I'll take him with me!

Say it with me, say it with me:

God, God, God is greatest!

God is above any attacker!

 

الله أكبر الله اكب

 

قولوا معي الويل للمستعمر

وﷲ فوق الغادر المتجبر

الله أكبر يا بلادي كبري

وخذي بناصية المغير ودمري

قولوا معي قولوا معي

الله الله الله أكبر

الله فوق المعتدي

 

 

God is Great God is Great

Say With Me Woe To The Enemy:

And God is Over The Invader Egotist,

God Greatest My Country Say with Me:

And Behold of Enemys Forelock and Destroy it

Say it with me, say it with me:

God, God, God is the Greatest

God is above any attacker!

 

Yes, I now see that the Islamic faith indeed received their wisdom from Japanese bushi between 569 AD-632 AD.

 

Those Asuka warriors sure were big travelers ! :)

 

Sorry !

 

KM

 

 

 

 

( "Bushido: The Soul of Japan written by Inazo Nitobe is, along with the classic text Hagakure by Tsunetomo Yamamoto (1659-1719), a study of the way of the samurai. A best-seller in its day, it was read by many influential foreigners, among them President Theodore Roosevelt, President John F. Kennedy and Robert Baden-Powell. It may well have shaped Baden-Powell's ideas on the Boy Scout movement he founded.

 

Nitobe originally wrote Bushido: The Soul of Japan in English (1900), in Malvern, Pennsylvania. The book was not translated into Japanese until it had been popular in the English-speaking world for several years.

 

As Japan underwent deep transformations of its traditional lifestyle while becoming a modern nation, Nitobe engaged in an inquiry into the ethos of his nation, and the result of his meditations was this seminal work. A fine stylist in English, he wrote many books in that language, which earned him a place among the best known Japanese writers of his age.

 

He found in Bushido, the Way of the Warrior, the sources of the virtues most admired by his people: rectitude, courage, benevolence, politeness, sincerity, honor, loyalty and self-control. His approach to his task was eclectic and far-reaching.

 

He also delved into the other indigenous traditions of Japan, such as Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism and the moral guidelines handed down over hundreds of years by Japan's samurai and sages.

 

In addition, he sought similarities and contrasts by citing not only Western philosophers and statesmen, but also the shapers of European and American thought and civilization going back to the Romans, the Greeks and Biblical times. He found a close resemblance between the samurai ethos of what he called Bushido and the spirit of medieval chivalry and the ethos of ancient Greece, as we observe it in books like the Iliad of Homer." )

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Dear HJ

So, What do you want to say ?

Do you think Nitobe's book is not good ???

 

Do you think

HERE we discern the most cogent precept in the code of the samurai.

Nothing is more loathsome to him than underhand dealings and crooked undertakings,

 

THE SWORD, THE SOUL OF THE SAMURAI

BADGE OF HIS STATUS

is not True (for you) ?

 

BTW. Don't you want to practice Tameshigiri ?

This is how to practice.

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If anyone has a burning desire to cut bamboo, we have plenty of it growing wild.

If you want to cover my time and shipping, I'd be happy to chop some down and send it on.

From arrow bamboo of up to 1cm thick to timber bamboo of up to 15cm thick(hard to come by), we have most varieties.

Common type is around 3cm to 5cm and has two varieties; thick wall ~ 8mm and thin wall ~4mm.

Unsure on maximum shipping lengths but 4ft should at least be doable as I've shipped 4ft packages before.

 

Just a thought in case anyone was interested.

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Dear Kunitaro-san, while the video of Tameshi-Giri is great to see, and the book by mr. Nitobe certainly has its merits, it cannot be seen as an historical study into the way of the Samurai. Especially not since he tries to make links with historic phenomena in other cultures of which we know have nothing to do with Japan, nor ever had contact with the Island realm.

 

The bushido idea as was written about by mr. Nitobe was later very much abused by the Japanese Imperial Military.

Where Yamamoto Tsunetomo was in fact, a Samurai, mr. Nitobe was not, and never would become one.

 

Though it is certainly not a bad book, it should not be (mis)used as a fact giver.

 

Tameshi-Giri is great to see and worthwhile to practice, just as Koryu styles and Kendo are great to practice.

 

The reason I posted what I posted is not to mock you, it is to simply show that mr. Nitobe unfortunately did not know European as well as Arabic history as we know it today, and because much was already known about it at that specific time in Europe, he did therefore not do proper research. You simply cannot make analogies like that. It is the same mistake as Padre Gaspar Vilela made much earlier, trying to compare Ikko-Ikki and mt. Hiei warrior monks to medieval Knightly priesthood orders.

 

Best wishes,

 

KM

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I checked the videos of this guy, very nice cuts.

 

I have a question, on this video 5:05 he uses a 6 cm wide blade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihWuLMlm ... ature=plcp

 

Does it help to cut wide targets easier?

 

Edit: It looks that there are more member there use wider blades, it looks to me that they not really comfortable with it, esspecially when nukitsuke and first cut.

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mr.Bray, Yes, It is ideal if we can have good fresh bamboo from HK,

but, normal postage like 4 feet long and 20-30Kg by airmail will be very expensive.

also, short bamboo is difficult to cut for beginner, 2-3m is better,

 

btw, I liked your comment on the topic of certification paper...

 

mr.Hennik and mr.Ken,

Thank you for watching the Video,

as you see, when you learn basic, and go step by step, anybody will reach certain degree.

And we will understand more about sword from this experience.

 

mr.HJ,

the subject is about the sword.

Do you disagree with Nitobe about "rectitude and justice" and "about the sword" ?

 

The sword, The soul of Samurai, the badge of his status.

 

mr.Hans,

I have a question, on this video 5:05 he uses a 6 cm wide blade:

Does it help to cut wide targets easier?

i don't know, i have no experience of using such a special blade.

 

BTW, I would like to make a plan organizing Tameshigiri Seminar/Workshop in Europe with mr.Isao Machii maybe next year.

It could be US and Hawaii, if its possible.

What do you think ?

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Dear mr. Kunitaro,

 

I do not believe in the rectitude and justice part of the Bushido doctrine.

Also I do not believe the sword of the Samurai is his soul, or even contained his soul. A kami, perhaps.

 

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Whether or not the Samurai themselves believed to act out of rectitude and justice, and if their soul would be living in their sword is another matter which has been studied by historians all over the world, without any definitive result.

 

Am I interested in the pre-Meiji history of Japan ? Most certainly.

Do I like and admire the Japanese sword ? Most certainly.

 

But to me, in the end, the sword is a weapon, as well as a form of art.

This also goes for Koryu, Kendo and other Japanese cultural phenomena which

have set a firm place in the world of today.

 

Do I believe in a higher reason, some esoteric meaning about bushido, swords, the Samurai et cetera ?

Most certainly not.

 

KM

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Dear HJ san,

Thank you for your hornest opinion. I understand. 

you don't eccept (or expect ) higher, art or spiritual value on the sword, it is just a weapon.

This kind of perspective on the sword is called 足軽目利 Ashigaru-mekiki.

 

we say in Japan that you can not find a sword, the sword must find you.

 

Matt san,

Thank you for your interest.

when we form our workshop, we will explain about antique and modern sword and make "Buke-mekiki 武家目利 (Samurai style Kantei) session.

 

Mr.Isao Machii is a professional proper trained sword polisher.

so, we will be able to hold a sword polishing workshop as well.

 

Jean sama,

I also have a big Katana dansu.

we say in Japan that when you buy a Katana dansu, your collection will increase.

and it was truth !!!

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Dear mr. Fujimoto, indeed I see the sword for what it essentially is.

 

However, the deeper meaning of the sword is not unknown to me.

I do find the artistry and art of the sword also very beautiful, as showing respect to the sword.

 

For Tameshi Giri, Wazamono would be great, but you cannot really use ancient Wazamono

because it would detract from the art-beauty and even could ruin the sword itself.

 

The techniques in the video are indeed very nice to watch, as most Koryu is nice to watch,

and even nicer to participate in. I especially like Kyudo and Yabusame.

 

The sword, as you say, indeed needs to find you, and you cannot find the sword.

 

That is a basic principle, also in training.

 

I know that in Almere and Amsterdam, one also can do Tenshin Shodan Katori Shinto Ryu, but at the moment it is

not possible for me to practice that Koryu, even though I live not far from Amsterdam myself.

 

But indeed, I see things often as a historian first, and as an admirer/collector secondly.

 

I like Nihon-To, and do not like Shinken and Iai-To that much, but Gendai-to I do like.

If I would engage in any Koryu training, I would like to have a full complement of what the

Samurai learned in their training. Yumi, Yari, Naginata, Horseback riding, and the two swords.

 

One can start at any age, because I personally hold no value or merit to super high Dan grades.

It is the road, not the destination which is more important to me.

 

Best wishes,

 

KM

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What appears to me in these latter comments, by Henk-Jan and Kunitaro san, is Shintoism( kami( more than soul)), mixed with Buddhism (Karma (the sword finds you)), to propagate some form of mysticism. If we take it from the Buddhist perspective, the soul, does not exist.

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Dear mr.Flynn,

 

Soul is not 神"Kami".

Soul is 魂 (Tamashii)

 

The sword is the soul of Samurai.

meaning is that the sword is the most important object for Samurai.

without Katana, he is not Samurai.

same as a person without soul, he is not a person anymore.

 

And Karma is meaning of just logic.

Cause and result.

the sword must find you, is meaning that,

If you are doing 足軽目利 Ashigaru-mekiki. you will get Gatana 束刀

If you are doing 町人目利 Chonin-mekiki (Honnami kantei), you will own the art sword、meihin, 美術刀剣 名品

If you are doing 武家目利 Buke-mekiki, you will own the mei-to, Ri-to 名刀、利刀

If you are doing 商人目利 Shonin-mekiki, you will get mei-to 迷刀

 

If you are studying high level, you will get high level sword,

If you are studying low level, you will get low level sword.

 

and The sword will not become like you, but, you become like the sword.....

so, when you see the sword, you will be able to understand the owner's personality.

This is a part of Kantei as well.

The sword represent the owner.

 

This is called Karma, but, it is just simple logic.

It is common sense, nothing mysterious or religious for us (Japanese).

 

If you want to find a good woman, you must be a good man.

It is make sense, isn't it ?

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KM.

 

I am in full disagreement with the statements made by mr. Fujimoto.

 

We have a bit of a nexus here. All you know about Japanese history, culture and more specifically about nihonto you gleaned from books. It is understandable since you are an academic.

All that Kunitaro san knows comes not only from books but more importantly from experience for which no book is a substitute.

You have little practical experience in handling nihonto - He has a wealth of experience in that and so many aspects of the nihonto world.

One would think that you might respect that fundamental and important difference, and his more advanced and wider viewpoint and use it to further your own knowledge rather than argue with it on petty historical and logical points, thus denying yourself the advantage of a broader and more complete knowledge.

 

Man is not a product of knowledge alone. Each of us is a product of his sentiments, his beliefs, his experience and his knowledge.

 

Just my two cents worth. :)

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Thread locked pending judicious pruning of dead wood. John

 

I want to remind everyone that we are from all corners of the world and as such have varied beliefs and philosophies. All cultures have had periods that do not show us at our best. Sack of Rome, Rape of the Sabine women etc. etc. Using incidents like these to illustrate points of argument (in its' proper sense) will be removed. Sometimes it is just better to not engage in contentious argument for arguments sake, especially when it deviates from the goal of this forum. Please remember the harmonious nature this subject warrants.

 

Thread unlocked. John

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Dear mr. Fujimoto,

 

I have a few serious questions for you, after having carefully read this :

 

Cause and result.

the sword must find you, is meaning that,

If you are doing 足軽目利 Ashigaru-mekiki. you will get Gatana 束刀

If you are doing 町人目利 Chonin-mekiki (Honnami kantei), you will own the art sword、meihin, 美術刀剣 名品

If you are doing 武家目利 Buke-mekiki, you will own the mei-to, Ri-to 名刀、利刀

If you are doing 商人目利 Shonin-mekiki, you will get mei-to 迷刀

 

If you are studying high level, you will get high level sword,

If you are studying low level, you will get low level sword.

 

and The sword will not become like you, but, you become like the sword.....

so, when you see the sword, you will be able to understand the owner's personality.

This is a part of Kantei as well.

The sword represent the owner.

 

This is called Karma, but, it is just simple logic.

It is common sense, nothing mysterious or religious for us (Japanese).

 

A: What do you mean by the sword will become like you, or, you will become like the sword ? How can any inanimate object reflect who you are or make you become something ?

 

B: If you are studying high level, you get high level sword you say. How can someone studying swords at a higher level

who has not much, or very little money, because for instance he has a job which does not pay very well, ever get a high level sword ?

Is it not so that to obtain high level swords you need to have high level money ?

 

C: you say that when you see the sword, you will be able to understand the owner's personalitiy. Lets look at that somewhat closer.

For instance, if the high level, very expensive sword is owned by a top Yakuza Oyabun, or top Russian mafia boss, who is frankly not the nicest of people, let alone honorable. Who kills adversaries or let other people do that for him, who sells drugs or does whatever other dark things like woman trafficking and prostitution, would you really be able to judge the man's character by simply looking at his sword ?

 

Please explain to me as clear as possible what you mean by your statements, because I really do not understand what you mean, but would like to understand.

 

Best wishes,

 

KM

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Henk-Jan,

Not wanting to answer on behalf of Kunitaro-san who I am sure can respond for himself, but I think you are confusing studying with buying.

You can study high level work without owning it. We do it all the time in this and other fields where prices of top quality work is beyond the reach of us mere mortals.

By studying high level work it may be possible to recognise examples which may appear from time to time in the market which are not priced beyond reach. Without studying top level work recognising such oportunities would be impossible. Equally by studying higher level work you can recognise positive attributes of lesser pieces.

What I have come to believe over time is that you cannot understand or appreciate top level workmanship by studying low end pieces. Whether that is swords, fittings, or any other art form. This is why I always object when sellers occassionally offer rubbish, out of polish, damaged beyond repair blades as "study pieces"

People can collect what they want and each of us have our own interests. All interests are equally vaild. However one cannot expect to unsderstand the finer pints of Ichimonji, Rai or Soshu work by spending a life time looking at gunto swords.

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Sorry, but I cannot see this going anywhere at all. I don't think Kunitaro san has to answer anything either. Logic and common sense answers most of the questions.

HJ..if that means there is something out there you don't understand...then so be it I guess.

Thread closed.

 

Brian

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