Hataraki question

[hillman]

Hi everyone,

 

I just received a new purchase, and have noticed some type of hataraki on the shinogi that I am unfamiliar with. So, I thought I'd see if the experience on this forum will be able to assist me.

 

The hataraki appears to me to be a very faint hitatsura, or a very bold utsuri, and is found on both the omote and ura, throughout the length of the blade. It's also not apparent unless viewed at the right angle under proper lighting. It's also not the hada, which can be seen underneath this.

 

Here are some pictures to illustrate what I'm describing.

 

Any feedback would be helpful!

[huntershooter]

Have you cleaned the blade?

It looks similar to the effect "Saran Wrap" leaves on a blade when wrapped with it.

[hillman]

Have you cleaned the blade?

It looks similar to the effect "Saran Wrap" leaves on a blade when wrapped with it.

 

Yes, I've cleaned the blade of any residual oil or dirt. This is a gendaito, so it's not that dirty to start with.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hillman, would you please sign your posts per Brian's rules?

 

I have one wakizashi with excellent hataraki, but I've never seen anything like your blade. Do they go above the shinogi?

 

Ken

[hillman]

Hillman, would you please sign your posts per Brian's rules?

 

I have one wakizashi with excellent hataraki, but I've never seen anything like your blade. Do they go above the shinogi?

 

Ken

 

My apologies...thanks for the reminder to sign my posts.

 

Some of this hataraki does extend above the shinogi, getting close to the mune, but its too faint to photograph because of the burnishing there.

 

Gerald

[Ken-Hawaii]

Gerald, I have a tanto with an oddball hataraki somewhat like yours:

 

but I've come to the conclusion that the smith's intent was to make the hamon appear like Fuji-san, & the hamon goes all the way up to the mune. Your blade, on the other hand, has hataraki that look random. Do you have any information on the smith or school?

 

Ken

[hillman]

Ken, this blade is by a gendai smith working in the Bizen tradition, but I'm not familiar with similar hataraki in Bizen work.

 

Gerald

[cabowen]

Have you cleaned it with something like acetone? It does look like staining rather than hardening.

[Lindus]

A while back a n old friend cleaned his blade using lighter fuel,had similar results which upset him a little as Mishina had polished the blade several months before,seem additives in the fluid added new dimensions to the Hamon and Hada

[hillman]

I had guessed it might have been cleaned with acetone by a previous owner, since I've only used uchiko, but the patchiness seems to be on the crystalline level in the steel.

 

I've included two more close-up shots of the ji (my camera's macro function is awful BTW), hoping to depict this.

[runagmc]

I agree it appears to be some kind of staining rather than an effect of quenching. It's definitely not utsuri.

 

Maybe if you keep using the uchiko it will start to disappear...

[Eric H]

Hataraki are per defintion activities within the hamon or temperline :lol:

 

Eri

[runagmc]

http://www.nihontocraft.com/nihonto_jig ... araki.html

[Eric H]

Yes it‘s a hairsplitting

However the correct term for activities in the Ji or Shinogi-Ji is: Jichu-Hataraki... they are: ji-nie, chikei, utsuri, yubashiri, tobiyaki, muneyaki

 

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Mune-yaki and tobi-yaki are hardened spots not hataraki.

[Brian]

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/ ... &sk=t&sd=a

I believe muneyaki and tobiyaki are still considered hataraki...features found. Anyways, I am not going to let this thread go down the road of semantics yet again. Discuss the original question, not the meanings of words.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

There is no hataraki, utsuri, nie/nioi, etc., in a blade prior to quenching. They are all produced through hardening and thus are all hardened steel within a softer matrix.

[Eric H]

I‘d like to emphasize that hataraki are the intended result of smithing - in nioi deki or nie deki - except shirake utsuri, which occurs unintentionally, hence the pattern seen on this sword cannot be identified as hataraki in the original sense. The mazy pattern is likely the result of improper handling.

 

Eric

[runagmc]

Eric, I agree with you that what we are seeing here is not hataraki, but I don't agree that hataraki HAS to be intentional.

 

What would you call utsuri (or any other hataraki) that appeared unintentionally? I would still label it with whatever name it is normally identified by.

 

So I would say hataraki is often intentional, but not always... and never completely predictable.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

So I would say hataraki is often intentional, but not always... and never completely predictable.

 

 

IMHO, it's just the difference between a chu saku and a saijo saku

[cabowen]

Are you implying that saijo saku smiths have more hataraki than chu saku smiths or that saijo saku smiths have the ability to control the hataraki to a greater degree than chu saku smiths?

[Jacques D.]

Are you implying that saijo saku smiths have more hataraki than chu saku smiths or that saijo saku smiths have the ability to control the hataraki to a greater degree than chu saku smiths?

 

I think it's clear enough

[bmoore1322]

Sorry to hear this, as that seems like a beautiful blade, I only use Choji on all of my blades, I live out in the country and have 3 good size streams that beside my house, so I keep them oiled pretty good.

 

Hopefully you can get those stains off the blade.

 

Good luck.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

I think it's clear enough

 

Something is certainly clear, but not your implication.

[hillman]

I appreciate everyone's feedback, and the general consensus does seem to be that the ji is stained.

 

Gerald

[Jacques D.]

Mister bowen

 

Have a look on a shodai Tadayoshi suguha hamon and its distribution of nie, so you will understand what i mean.

[cabowen]

Mister bowen

 

Have a look on a shodai Tadayoshi suguha hamon and its distribution of nie, so you will understand what i mean.

 

 

Heat treatment is but one facet of sword making and it would be foolish to assume that it is the difference between saijo saku and chu saku ranked smiths.

 

By the way, how many shodai Tadayoshi blades have you actually seen in your hand?

[runagmc]

Remember, Jean has his finger on the "lock post" button...

[cabowen]

Remember, Jean has his finger on the "lock post" button...

 

Sounds like a good idea as there really isn't anywhere for this thread to go but south....

[Jacques D.]

Mister Bowen,

 

Once more you're slipping off topic which is HATARAKI.

 

I always consider the work of a smith as a whole and not only partially.