KaneZane sword for discussion.

[bmoore1322]

Okay, I was planning on doing something about this, and possibly buying it, but there was something off about it to me, so I asked an expert in PM , and he confirmed what I was thinking.

 

I know I said no more non-Nihonto swords, but i do like the KaneZane swords.

 

The hot stamp end section has been completely removed, as well as the military stamping also, and adding flashy mounts to it, as if someone is purposely trying to pass this off as an Nihonto, and it is an Showa blade.

 

The MEI is correct, but it seems like someone has tried their best to conceal that it is an oil drenched, Showa blade.

 

 

What do you think on this;

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0965591974

 

 

Thanks

Brian

[paulb]

Brian,

I think the key point is that the seller is describing it as Showa blade so he is not trying to pass it off as anything other than what it is.

Based on the images I couldnt say for sure whether it was oil quenched but I would think it a reasonable bet that it was.

A long time ago I had several Kanezane blades they were all hand forged but with hindsight I am pretty sure they were also all oil quenched. One of them (my favourite blade at the time) needed a koshirae and I lavished great care and attention putting something together that made it look like a real "Samurai Sword"

I think that is what someone has done here at some point in the past.

whether it was done to decieve we will never know but I do not think the seller is misrepresenting what he has. For what it is worth the price he is asking is about the same as I bought my first Kanezane blade in wrecked gunto mounts for in 1994

[bmoore1322]

@ Paul

 

 

He actually says in the listing ;

 

" The sword is nice example of a Showa era smith. Very nice hand forged blade ".

 

 

I was talking with another member in here in PM, and he was saying what I had suspected, I don't think the seller did those things I mentioned, I think he originally bought it like that.

 

I was not trying to trash talk the sword, or the seller, sorry if it came across in that manner, as that was not my intentions.

 

Brian

[paulb]

Brian

you didnt trash the sword so there is nothing to apologise for. I just wanted to be clear that I didnt think he was trying to deceive anyone. Who knows what the reason for the original modification of the sword was.

[bmoore1322]

Paul

 

 

I wished who ever originally owned that sword, would left the HOT STAMP, and the arsenal stamp on it, as I feel like part of the history of the sword has been removed, and besides I like the HOT STAMP on KaneZane swords.

 

Brian

[paulb]

yes I agree with you. I think the only reason to remove it is either to make it fit an existing koshirae or as is more likely to decieve a potential buyer.

Either way it would have been much better to leave it there (and probaly added to its value)

[bmoore1322]

Yes, I agree, as its a beautiful blade, and the value on it is diminished because of the HOT STAMP section looks like it was removed intentionally.

 

I do like the fittings on it though.

 

Brian

[Rich S]

I have one Kanezane sword in original civilian Showa mounts that I obtained from the Moody collection. Nice two character mei, but the showa stamp is very, very light and not complete. No one had tried to remove it, just it didn't take when stamped. It is one of the Kanezane mei listed in

Fuller and Gregory's book. Civilian mounts and hard to see stamps don't necessarily mean a remounted sword nor an attempt to deceive.

 

Rich S

[bmoore1322]

@ Rich

 

 

But the HOT STAMP section has been completely removed / cut off, as well as the arsenal stamp.

 

Brian

[SwordGuyJoe]

Not all Kanezane's have the hot stamp.

[bmoore1322]

Yes, I know that, but I have never seen a signature that ends at the very tip like this one does.

 

I got a message from the owner, and he did confirm both items were removed, that he bought it like that.

 

Brian

[Lindus]

Several blades by this smith passed my way over the years,Oil or water tempered when polished they had a good fine hada and Hamon. Seem a decent "Gendai" type blade although the debate would go on over that statement,just wonder how many blades dismissed out of hand if the polisher was allowed to carry on as I did on several occasions would then find activity denied on such blades.

 

Putting my head on the block once again I have to say that when tempering anything {In my case Machine tools and chisels} weather water {In most case's}or oil as requested by some, the out come was similar.

 

I would be interested in the comments of the more eminant members on just how oil-V-water cooling alters the structure of hardness???,I remember watching the colours creeping down the metal object being tempered and selecting the appropriate colour before quenching sometimes in hot water or cold and on other occasions in hot oil.

 

I may be out on the memory thing at my age but "Scrapers" were oil quenched while "Scribers" were water quenched.

 

Just for fun

[paulb]

Hi Roy,

I make no claim to eminance but my understanding is as follows

1. The structure of the steel is determined by the temperature it is heated too, the length of time it is held at that temperature and the speed at which it is cooled. Nie (martensite) grows when the sword is heated above 700 deg. C the longer it is held there the bigger it becomes. As the steel cools the nie starts to decompose and return to its pearlite state. This decomposition is arrested by rapid cooling

2. Rapid cooling as described above creates considerable stress in the blade, the back cooling more slowly shrinks more than edge, this can result in the hamon cracking.

3. cooling in oil is slower and therefore introduces less stress and is more forgiving. (I think it may also be domnw at lower temperatures but I may have imagined that) this means that any nie present has the opportunity to revert back to it's smaller form, nioi, or to pearlite.

While not necessarily effecting the hardness of the steel it will effect whether the blade has nie or is nioi based.

All the above does assume that the quality of the metal being worked is sufficiently good so as to produce nie in the first place.

[ROKUJURO]

Although this is not related directly to KANEZANE swords, I would like to mention that martensite has a slightly higher volume than the same amount of steel that it is produced from. In quenching, this expansion mainly causes the bending of the blade, resulting in it's SORI. If the balance of expansion of the HA area and the shrinking of the MUNE is not well, the blade may develop HAGIRE immediately or at a later point of time. So the construction of a blade plays an important role and experience and skills of a smith are crucial for good results.

 

Generally speaking, industrially produced steel (even when called 'carbon steel') is likely to contain different amounts of alloy metals, while TAMAHAGANE is very pure and does not contain any additional elements except carbon. Industrial steel in small cross-cut dimensions cannot be hardened in water without the risk of cracking, TAMAHAGANE on the other hand will not produce the features Paul described above when quenched in oil as this is a very rapidly transforming steel which requires a rather 'brutal' cooling.

[Lindus]

Excellent replies gentlemen,Thank you.

[bmoore1322]

Okay, i did end up buying this sword, it showed up today in the mail, and to my surprise it came with a letter from the following ;

 

 

Japanese Sword Society of the United States, Inc.

 

It is signed by Ron Hartmann, and dated July 20, 1985, and in the letter it does state that it does appear that someone in the past did shorten the sword to try and age it, this does not bother me, as its in full polish, and showing plenty of Hamon, what is curious is that Ron Hartmann says it the letter ;

 

" It is probably a very nice hand forged WW2 Blade ". Does this mean that he thinks it is an traditionally made blade, as there does appear to be some Hada present in the blade as well.

 

The letter does have the copy of the nakago on a separate piece of paper, showing Kanezane's signature.

 

 

Brian

[cabowen]

Knowledge of WWII blades has come a long way since 1985.....

[bmoore1322]

Yes they have, but to have a letter signed by Ron Hartmann, that does not happen too often.

 

It has got to help the sword, with this letter about it.

 

 

Brian

[cabowen]

Yes they have, but to have a letter signed by Ron Hartmann, that does not happen too often.

 

It has got to help the sword, with this letter about it.

 

 

Brian

 

With all due respect to Ron, who I am sure will chime in here, no one had a real clue about WWII swords in 1985, and I would be surprised if Ron doesn't indicate as much. Not sure what you mean by "help the sword" but it is what it is, most likely a showa-to.

[nagamaki - Franco]

One member of our study group has more than once reflected upon the fact of how when there were still barrels of Japanese swords to be found at the end of gun show tables which included up to that 1985 era, how unfortunate it was that they, 'collectors', were buying swords in WWII mounts and skipping over those in shirasaya, why, because they thought the more expensive swords in war mounts were the better swords.