What do you think of this one?

[Jean]

I had not been on this site for almost a year and while strolling along yesterday evening, I saw this one. What do you think of it?

 

http://www.nipponto.com/Sword/detailichimonji.html

[Soten_Fan]

Sword porn on a Sunday morning?

 

Really, my kind of blade.. I love the shape, the school, and the price is not bad.. Shouldn't be hard to drop the price to around 9k which would be 7k in sterling.

 

If only I had 7k handy...

 

Is it papered?

[Stegel]

I think it is fantastic, truly a beautiful blade.

Thanks Jean.

 

Ernst

[Jean]

The blade is not papered

 

edit to add:

 

Fukuoka Ichimonji golden age spans from beginning of Kamakura to end of Kamakura

How many cutting test have you seen with seven bodies cut?

Last Yoshifusa (Fukuoka Ichimonji) registered is end of 13th century

 

The description of the blade does not mention the utsuri.

 

 

Now, this sword (should it be as described) should be Juyo token and worth at least 6 to 7 million¥

 

A Juyo wakizashi by Fukuoka smith is worth 2,3 M¥

 

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00008.html

 

In the same site there is a katana Katayama Ichimonji juyo at 8 M¥

[almeister]

Hi Jean ,

My attention is drawn to the nakago for obvious reasons , understanding that a cutting test is added post blade manufacture , the area at the mei itself has obviously been effected by corrosion or hammer peining / whilst above the signature nakago good ? I don't understand what they actually do to the nakago when it comes to adding the cutting test / whether or not it is acceptable to clean ? I would be certainly concerned in purchasing this blade without authentication from shinsa !

PS : In the lower picture of the nakago ( on the mei side ) could that be a hairline crack at 12 oçlock within the mekugi ana ?

Or are my eyes playing games on me ?

Obviously You've seen something wrong !

Cheers

Alan

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

What do you think of it?

 

It's a joke

 

A Very nice Yoshifusa here

[Eric H]

...a signed blade, purportedly from Nambokucho period, with cutting test, in excellent polish.

 

fully agreed with Jean's comment

 

- no origami

- saidan by a recognized tester usually inlaid in gold with his name and kao

- bargain price, doesn't reflect what could be expected if the blade would be shoshin

 

otherwise a fine sword

 

BTW the hairline crack seems to be a file stroke

 

Eric

[Jean]

I am going to rephrase it :

 

Would you sell 9,5 K€ something potentially worth 70 K€? (and I don't take into account the added value of the seven dragon cutting test.

 

We don't often see Ichimonji blades on the web for sale (5 or 6 at the time being), but I have never seen one with such a cutting test or a cutting test)

 

Now, the hamon. Compare the Sukemune one with this one. Or better, what are the characteristics of a Fukuoka hamon?

[almeister]

I repeat Possible crack ( within the hole itself at twelve oçlock ) - then following up to the side of the nakago - possibly consistent with mating up to a seemingly visual file mark ?

Hard to say without having blade in hand !

Cheers

Alan

[Danocon]

I am going to jump in here with the caveat that it is more for my education than anything else and you guys can tell me why I am way off base.

My first impression is that it is a recently made blade. The hada, from what I can see is very tight. The steel has a "new" look to it and the shape is very strong.

 

The only reason I can think of with my limited knowledge to hammer the end of the nakago is to cover something up.

 

Whatever it is- I like this blade.

[Eric H]

I repeat Possible crack ( within the hole itself at twelve oçlock )

[Jean]

I have got a very large screen and don't see any crack, but it is irrelevant as it is not the subject of the topic

 

Now, when was it forged?

 

I tend to agree with Dan and I put it shinshinto or a bit later. The hamon as shown is typical of the ones which can be encountered on Ichimonji Utsushi (even in Shinsakuto)

 

http://www.moderntosho.com/Masahiro/masashiro.htm

[paulb]

Hi Dan,

I think you are right and this is a relatively new blade. Possibly Shin-Shinto but maybe even later. Ther are many reasons why this doesnt seem right for what it claims to be but you have certainly identified one which is the hada looks tight and "new" the whole thing seems to lack antiquity. Sorry this is not a helpful remark but it is one of those things which is more a feeling than fact, like sayng it looks hard, I agree with you but cant define why.

I also agree with you that it is a reasonable looking blade. The problem isnt what it is, it is what it is claiming to be. To support Jean's earlier comments:

1. I have never seen an Ichimonji blade with a cutting test doesnt mean there arent any but I would think at least one of the mjor references would illustrate one if it existed.

2. the hada is wrong

3. From the illustratons I cant see any utsuri.

4. If there was any possibilty this was right and it was papered to Juyo level it would be valued in the high 10s of thousand dollars. Even with a basic authentication paper it would be valued at 3 or 4 times what it is listed for here. Therefore you would think anyone who knew about the market and swords (which one asumes this dealer does) would submit it for papers.

The problem isnt with the sword which as others have said looks a half decent work. The problem is with the mei and the implication that this is a genuine Fukuoka Ichimonji.

[Stegel]

Any chance it is Gimei?

To me the mei appears to be newer than the actual cutting test inscription?

Would the peening effect have been the removal of a mei and then this one added?

 

I heard that Seven body cutting tests are most unusual and probably overstated, in that they are almost impossible.

What is the actual cut being performed? hips? chest? etc? (as i don't have a reference for it)

 

Also the blade in the emuseum, does not have as prominent masame as this one....

 

Forgive my ingnorance, but i'm new to this stuff and very interested.

 

Ernst

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Any chance it is Gimei?

 

 

It is gimei. The tameshi mei and the mei seem to have been engraved at the same time. Seven bodies cut, waouhhh...

 

According Fujisihiro Yoshifusa had made tachi only and he worked around 1247.

[cabowen]

I would say it is a shinsakuto, most likely made by one of the Kimura smiths from Kyushu, like Kanetsugu. They make this exact hamon, hada, and like to make o-gissaki works. Here is a photo of an example of their ji-ba. Decide for yourself...

[Jean]

Jacques,

 

There were 3 Yoshifusa according the Nihonto Koza active during the 13th century.

 

I thought too Shinsakuto, Chris, this hamon is typical of Shinsakuto utsushi of Ichimonji Bizen blades

[cabowen]

Jacques,

 

There were 3 Yoshifusa according the Nihonto Koza active during the 13th century.

 

I thought too Shinsakuto, Chris, this hamon is typical of Shinsakuto utsushi of Ichimonji Bizen blades

 

 

I have seen many Kimura blades and have owned one- they make a very distinctive choji which looks exactly like the hamon on this "Ichimonji"....I would bet heavily this is a Kimura blade....

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

Jean,

Yes i know that, but it is just a theory and Fujishiro san has another. It's just a battle of experts and we are out of it. They worked all at nearly the same time in middle Kamakura and as there are no dated works ...

[drjoe]

I have seen many Kimura blades and have owned one- they make a very distinctive choji which looks exactly like the hamon on this "Ichimonji"....I would bet heavily this is a Kimura blade....

 

if it's really a shinsakuto, what on earth is going on with the nakago? who would deliberately alter a shinsakuto nakago in this way -- i can't imagine a komiya smith doing so. and if they did, why?

[Soten_Fan]

Guys, you seem to make a convincing case that this is a gimei. It is too good to be true for that price and that hammering around the mei is suspicious. Are you suggesting that this is a forgery made by a living smith? Is that even legal?

 

However, a few months back I held in my hands the Ichimonji blade that sold for around £79,000 at Christie's in London, and it was very similar to that blade. Is there no chance that this blade a koto one?

 

Gimei or not, it is a stunner. If I had the money I would go for it..

[Derek79]

It is a good looking piece, gimei or not. As I am still learning, and there is so much to learn, is it common for the boshi to be so drastically different. It almost looks forge welded on. Granted I have zero experience, it just looks...odd...to me. I also spent the last 30 minutes looking at the different periods and schools and, wow, I have a hard time differentiating. Definitely so much to learn.

[Eric H]

who would deliberately alter a shinsakuto nakago in this way

 

The motif for forgerie is almost exclusively financial gain.

 

To add, cutting tests on Koto blades are very rarely seen if at all.

 

similar swords with oo-kissaki, modeled after Kiyomaro, like the mentioned Kanetsugu are also made by:

 

Higo Kuni ju Akamatsu Taro Kanehiro another member of the Kimura

 

Minamoto Moriyoshi

 

2 pics to compare the basic pattern of the hamon

 

above - detail of a Katana by Kanehiro - blade

below - detail of the „Ichimonji“ - Kissaki

 

Eric

[cabowen]

I doubt the smith who made the blade did it....

 

It was done for profit, plain and simple.

 

Sometimes a smith will make a copy, down to the patination, etc., but I believe they must sign their name to the blade by law. It is easy for someone else to have the name removed and a spurious mei added. It has been part and parcel of Japanese swords for 1000 years. One might even say it it tradition...

 

If nothing else, the 7 body test is a tip off....That is sheer nonsense...

[Jean]

Just to continue, look at the hada of the Yoshifusa and the hada of this one :

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13552

 

Estupendo, si?

[Danocon]

Cool!

 

Something about this blade felt new.

So at the risk of negating my lucky guess I have some questions/comments.

 

The hamachi is well defined. Is that usual on a blade supposedly this old?

 

There are two Mekugi-ana which would suggest it had been shortened. Why put two Mekugi-ana that close together?

 

If shortened is it possible that the hammered area is what is left of the original signature. Then the cutting test was put over it to further camouflage it.

And finally-Am I missing something or is it signed on the wrong side for a tachi?

[runagmc]

"Yoshifusa" is the 2 character mei on the tachi-omote (in the hammered looking area), and the cutting test is the long inscription on the other side...

 

Sometimes new mekugi-ana are done purely for a new set of mounts, even when the nakago remains unshortened.

[Jean]

Now, Chris, what is the price of a kimura blade?

 

What are their usual nagasa?

[Kam]

All other aspects aside and just assessing the blade (not the mei) The Nakago has been deliberately done and no attempt to make the mekugi ana look punched. The overall health of the blade would say it has not seen combat and as has been stated a very healthy hamachi. I agree with Chris most likely a Kimura Shinsakuto. I had a Higo dotanuki that was actually shinsakuto that had an expertly done nakago that would fool most experts. The patina on this example has the "crinkle rust that is achieved the same way the higo craftsman would do there Fuchigashira minus the use of green tea. On the flip side I have seen shoshin blades have the nakago done in this fashion after someone had previously removed the natural patina. Maybe Im wrong but for the chance of owning a Juyo blade by a great school and in superb condition and at that price the above mentioned is enough for me to "move on"

 

Kam

[cabowen]

Now, Chris, what is the price of a kimura blade?

 

What are their usual nagasa?

 

 

I have seen many for sale on the net, maybe $5-$8K, in polish, some with koshirae.

 

Lengths seem to be in the range of 2 shaku 3 sun to 2 shaku 5 sun.