Natichu

I pre-ordered and received my copy the other day. I haven't had the chance to review in depth but will circle back with my thoughts when I've spent a bit more time with it. Not cheap, but not bad and on first glance a beautiful book! 

I'm also in Vancouver, and had a sword shipped up from the States in May that cleared customs pretty well the same day it came in. Sounds like some bad border luck unfortunately! 

Just as an FYI, I emailed the JSSC in April to inquire about their beginners course. Fred quite nicely emailed me back, indicating he was likely going to be retiring and so wasn't going to be offering the course.  May be why you have not received a response. 

4 hours ago, Mark S. said:

Not sure if this one fits your needs.

 

https://www.samurais....jp/sword/24152.html

Thanks very much for sending that my way, it's greatly appreciated. I think when initially looking, I thought I would prefer a Taira Takada attribution. However, on reflection that does seem like an excellent option and so will give it some thought. 

If you see any others on your internet travels, I'd be grateful if you could send them my way, but at any rate thanks again - yet another reason why the community here is so helpful as a beginner starting out. 

Hi all, 

I'm interested in pursuing a longer Bungo Takada daito (tachi or katana). Preferably 2.5 to 2.6 shaku, but with some flexibility either way. Preferably koto/Taira Takada or Keicho. NBTHK or NTHK papered. 

Budget is around $4500 USD, to be shipped to Canada. 

Please let me know if you have any pieces that fit the bill you're looking to sell. 

Thanks, 

On 9/10/2024 at 4:12 AM, Hoshi said:

... 

Jigane consistency: West > Japan

Western buyers are highly sensitive to minute defects in the jigane such as ware, showing of shintetsu, or irregularities (nagare elements). Much less so in Japan. In fact, if one carefully studies the elite blades (Tokuju/Jubi/Jubun/Kokuho), these types of defect are often present, even in the highest ranking smiths. Jigane consistency is not to be confused with brilliance/wetness (Uroi). The uroi quality of the jigane is a highly valued attribute in Japan, even in the presence of nagare elements or ware disturbing the consistency of the jigane. 

... 

First and foremost, thank you very much for such an insightful post. I found it very helpful. I did have one question about the section on jigane, in particular shintetsu. Is this tolerance of shintetsu an overarching thing - that is, applicable to all blades generally - or is it more particular to blades from schools like Hizen or Rai, in which I understand it may be a bit of a kantei point? (If I'm incorrect on that issue my apologies, I'm a rather rank beginner at all of this.)

5 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Okay, someone prove me wrong, but with facts, not words with no real content. The world of Nihontö is extremely complex and cannot be approached like that. How many people here can decipher a hamon correctly? None, until proven otherwise.

 

Precisely, after studying sugata (not so easy, in fact) that's what he should study and then move on to hamon. How can you tell whether a mumei sword is Bizen or Yamato if you can't read the hada? Did you know, for example, that in the Rai school, mokume is almost always mixed with itame?

 

I just want to spare the beginner from cruel disillusionment, so that he knows that he's stepping into a highly complex world, and that just because he's seen a piece of metal in the shape of a saber doesn't mean he's done the trick. there's a lot of money behind all this. It's clear that I'm expressing myself a little harshly, but my bad English (and my nature) prevent me from being more diplomatic.

 

But you just said the study of nihonto was like baking and physics, and now it's different? Talk about moving goal posts. 

At any rate, I agree it's highly complex and technical, and enough to make a beginner like me question at many points whether it is worth pursuing. I don't think anyone expects otherwise, or disagrees with your proposition that sword in hand is best. It seems you're suggesting the forum and those that recommend books are saying that you can learn it all without ever touching a sword. That is a patent strawman, and I don't think anyone here has ever put forward that argument.  Rather, it's that books have their place both as a supplement to that (else the NBTHK surely wouldn't have any for reference) and as a way for us beginners to build vocab and understand exactly how much our knowledge is lacking.

Few things have made clearer to me that I need more swords in hand to learn the basics than the small number of books I have. But they've taught me small pieces about the basics such that I have a better sense to guide my learning as I move forward and allow me to better articulate questions, and that has real value. It certainly won't bring me anywhere near your level of knowledge and experience (and I don't think anyone disagrees you are knowledgeable and would be a real asset to this forum if you would put your knowledge out there for members to read) but it is something and is what is available to me in terms of time and financial commitment. 

At any rate, that's almost assuredly enough from me. 

OP - as a fellow beginner I have found both the Connoisseurs Guide and Facts And Fundamentals to be good starting points, along with the assorted online resources around (which thankfully are free). 

5 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Okay, I'm setting the bar high, but you can't tell the difference between a nashiji hada and a konuka hada from a book. Having said that, I give an opinion and everyone can do what they want with it, it's not my problem. I would never have become a physicist without a teacher. I don't know any bakers who learned their trade from books, and I can go on and on. 

While I hesitate to weigh in, those fields you have mentioned are trades, not hobbies and passions. Many home bakers and cooks have learned plenty, and done well, learning from books and without teachers. Many in any number of other fields pursued as a hobby do the same. Beginners here are generally not setting out to be polishers or museum curators, that is true sword professionals. They are those that have a passion and wish to learn more as part of a hobby. 

Certainly, getting blades in hand with a teacher present is the best way to learn. But that doesn't mean other avenues don't have value for those looking to pursue knowledge, and the pleasure of learning. Just because I can't drop everything to go do an advanced degree at MIT doesn't mean I shouldn't enjoy reading Six Easy Pieces. Talk about letting the perfect be the enemy of the good!

At any rate, I don't anticipate I or anyone else will change your mind or persuade you to moderate your approach when dealing with newbs, neophytes, or those just looking to learn a bit. But one can't help but feel your approach does more to hinder the passion we all share rather than further it. 

16 hours ago, Jon said:

For a first katana I would honestly go with a blade with a Mei…of all my swords my favourites by far all have Mei…infact I’m only going to keep blades with Mei in future….it adds so much connection to the smith when you look down and see the Mei…it’s the thing that truly differentiates my Nihonto from my European swords….a true original work of art should have a signature….
 

I can definitely see the appeal in having a papered zaimei blade, and that would be my preference. That said, with a restricted budget and strong preference as to size, for the moment I think mumei may be where I end up. If I can land a signed so much the better, but I'm more likely to compromise there than on length. Will very much keep in mind though, and let you know where I land! 

Number 3 takes the cake for me as I'm quite fascinated with naginata naoshi, with my least favourite being 1. Please forgive my ignorance, but I had thought 1 would qualify as a hira-zukuri. What sugata is that? 

After 3, I'd say two would be my runner up. Seems to have some presence to the sugata to my eye though I can't say why (I may interpret the image as showing it having a high shinogi, but that I anticipate that is me mis-seeing things). 

6 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

 

I think as a first blade to purchase, its a good choice.

But there are couple of things I don't like about it. For example, "masame" does not change much as it crosses from hamon's area towards the ji and back. While it states in the description as sunagashi and kinsuji, you get this effect when hamon is not tempered into hard nie. So this blade is bright, but with Dotanuki better blades always show a lot of nie activity which is very much subdued here. Its both atypical and not the best.

That makes sense, definitely an interesting looking blade, and if I understand your explanation correctly that very much explains why the activities in the hamon look almost more hada continued than what one usually sees. 

If it ever comes back on the market I may well jump, but think that's unlikely any time soon given it's just been purchased by someone else. That said, if it ever happens I'll certainly let you know. 

12 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

 

This is an interesting blade. It does tick many boxes and its easy to study, but its also not a typical Dotanuki in many ways.

One never knows, it may come back around and find me. Otherwise, lots of things to learn in the meantime it seems! If you have any study resource recommendations on either Dotanuki or Bungo Takada, they'd be most welcome. 

39 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

In Japan quite a few dojo use "antique" swords since they can't easily import modern iai blades. But anything iaido suitable means the blade is nearly dead in every artistic aspect.

Bungo: honestly very solid school that produced masterpieces during Tensho period and very solid work around 1650. Victim of NBTHK decision to use it to dump every single blade it does not care about or does not understand into this category, in addition to good work which is appraised Bungo by merit. 

 

Dotanuki will be shorter, much more massive and by default average to high end quality in artistry. They feel very different in hand compared to other blades, they are excellent cutters and do not chip very easily despite nie hardening. 30 inch Dotanuki the blade alone will go probably above 1.2kg, so they are usually in 26-27 inch range.

Bungo - the best thing to go for suguha with tight itame, which can be either Rai or Aoe (even better) copy by Bungo. I have no idea how well they cut (these are higher end artistic blades which are actually quite rare). 

Fantastic information, thank you very much! Unfortunately I missed out on a Dotanuki a little while back from Touken Komachi as I was following the English page rather than the Japanese. Would have been a lovely find and checked pretty well all of my boxes:

https://www.toukenko...i&katanaA010624.html

Will keep digging into the Bungo side of things and keep your advice in mind. 

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

It says in the description specifically:

- its a iaido blade (there is absolutely nothing to see in it)

- bungoed by NBTHK, meaning they can't see ... either

- iaido (i.e. new, cheap but sturdy) koshirae.

Thanks for the input! Learning to read between the lines of the Aoi descriptions seems to be a bit of an art. I took the iai reference to mean new, cheap, and sturdy koshirae (which I don't mind), but didn't apply it to the blade as well. 

In terms of the attribution by the NBTHK, I'm still very much learning on that front. While I understood Bungo Takada (and possibly less so Taira Takada and Fujiwara Takada) to be a bit of a kantei bucket of last resort, my thought was the attribution to a specific smith made that to be less likely. I take it I'm incorrect in that understanding though? Any insight there would be very much appreciated given my interest in pursing something from either the Takada or Dotanuki schools (and it seems like the former is going to be easier to get my hands on than the latter). 

3 first, 1 last, but can't say I'd turn my nose up at any to say the least! 

4 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Nathaniel, have you thought about compromising on length?
 

As you probably know, 70cm and longer blades attract a premium so, if you can live with something slightly shorter, you have better options in terms of quality. 

Hi John, 

I've definitely had some back and forth as to compromising on size, and might be willing to go as short as 2.40 (as the example above is), but don't think I'd go shorter. I definitely appreciate this both limits my options and means I'll be sacrificing quality but think that's the balance I'll be happiest with. 

I recall reading some posts from @Jussi EkholmEkholm on that front (hopefully he'll excuse the tag!) where he talked about his balancing of those factors, and putting appropriate size and shape at the forefront of things - or that's my recollection of them at any rate. Very much in line with what I'm going for, and I think he undoubtedly put it better than I can. 

That said I'll definitely keep it in mind and try not to close my mind off to the possibility, as you never know where the options will lead. 

Thanks for the input and insight! 

6 hours ago, oli said:

Maybe something like this: https://www.toukenko...&katana_A050724.html

A very nice option for sure, much appreciated! Unfortunately a bit out of reach, but a lovely piece. 

6 hours ago, Oldman said:

As a martial artist, I train with iaito between 2.50 and 2.55 shaku in length, and am hoping to land on something near that neighbourhood

 

I hope that by your comment about martial arts you don't mean that you intend to use an antique nihonto for iaido or other martial arts practise. Good luck in your search. This is indeed an area in which the journey is the goal.

 

Michael BC

No, as I mentioned above to Dan I don't intend to use an antique for training. The desire to own an antique of similar length to what I use in training is more philosophical in nature (a feel akin to having "my" sword and a connection to it, appreciating that I'm just a caretaker for a single generation of the swords much longer lifespan) rather than a practical limitation. 

1 hour ago, Gerry said:

"I'm not looking to start an extensive collection"

 

Famous last words. 

I find the best problems, complications, and troubles tend to be those you aren't looking for. So I figure may as well set myself up for success! 

All of which will be closely followed by "this is the last one, I swear!" 

1 hour ago, oli said:

75-77cm Nagasa from Shinto/Koto is hard to find, maybe Shinshinto or newer. If you like Yamato, you can also look for Monju, Mihara or Naminohara school.

Thanks for the suggestions! Will start digging into options on those fronts as well. 

45 minutes ago, O koumori said:

Difficult to say without the sword in-hand. The danger of this rust in the hamon is that you don't know how deep it goes, leading to the danger of a fukure, maybe now or  in the future. It is a weakened area, which you don't want in the hamon.

 

You mentioned iaido, as does the auction description in several places. Is this your intent for this blade?

 

Dan K

Thank you very much for the insight Dan. I don't intend to use the blade for training, but rather for appreciation - while I like the idea of having koshirae at some point, I'm also quite happy to have a blade solely in shirasaya so funds go to the blade itself. 

Hello all, 

I apologize in advance for a bit of longer post, but was hoping to get some input on a potential first purchase. 

Relatively new member here mulling through the inevitable trials and tribulations of a first purchase. Have missed on a few pieces of interest, but trying not to rush things or to feel pressured to move. 

Budget is round about $5000 USD for a daito. I'm not looking to start an extensive collection, likely just a single daito, a wakizashi, and maybe a wakizashi (with the aim of potentially combining items 2 and 3 by focusing on naginata-naoshi wakizashi). 

For the daito, one of my primary concerns is length. As a martial artist, I train with iaito between 2.50 and 2.55 shaku in length, and am hoping to land on something near that neighbourhood. I appreciate this is relatively long, and so I'll likely need to have some flexibility there if I'm not able to go up in budget or willing to accept pieces of lower quality. 

My preference would be for a koto blade, or at latest Keicho shinto. I have a particular interest in some of Yamato offshoots such as the Uda school (mainline Yamato seems out of reach) as well as some of the southern wakimono school - particularly the Dotanuki and Takada schools. The draw with the latter option is in part the reputation the schools seem to have had for having a focus on producing good weapons first, with aesthetic considerations being a lesser consideration. 

While papered and zaimei would obviously be the best option, I have no problem with mumei and papered as that seems likely to give me the best bang for buck in terms of quality. 

I'm somewhat wary of buying online from Japan, but have been following a number of site closely, including Aoi and Touken Komachi. 

Which brings us to an option that has come up recently:

https://sword-auctio...genbthk-hozon-token/

Upsides - good width and thickness, very attractive shape, papered to a specific smith rather than the more generic Taira Takada/Bungo Takada/Fujiwara Takada (which I understand can function as more of a shinsa kantei bucket of nondescript blades, along with Uda and Echizen Seki). Aoi indicates this is the Muromachi generation Munekaga, rather than the later Shoho era smith (any thoughts there are welcome, however, as it's unclear from the Hozon origami which is meant). The shape and osuriage nature of the blade seem to me to make the earlier smith the one intended, but I'm very new to all of this. 

Downsides to my mind are it's short for my desires (2.40), and there are two areas noted as having some rust (in emails, described as "usu sabi") - the mune side as mentioned in the listing and then in the hamon itself (ura side, a little ways above the hamachi). Pictures sent from Aoi attached. 

My main questions to the group are whether this seems a reasonable purchase for a beginner, and whether the rust (which I assume is stable, but again feedback welcome) would be a deal breaker for most of you if you were looking in this price range. Any feedback on whether going online through Aoi should be something I avoid at this point in my collection career as well would be much appreciated. 

Again, my apologies for the long post, but any input welcome! Thank you all for the time if you've made it this far. 

6 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

David,

just an additional remark: Perhaps it once was a NAGINATA, but as marked on the SHINSA leaflet, technically it is now a WAKIZASHI. Depending on the HAMON in the tip (KAERI or not), it may prove to be a NAGINATA NAOSHI.

Doesn't the shinsa report note it specifically to be naginata naoshi? 

Under construction, it is listed as "(その他)薙刀直し". 

On 6/6/2024 at 8:47 AM, Tengu1957 said:

Jussi ,  thank you. It just gives a different feel in hand for what all of the O Suriage swords must have been like as Ubu. I don't take very good photos  buts it's better than it looks here. I will be interested to see what it will paper to. 

Please do let us know how the shinsa goes! Would be quite interested to hear the results. 

I have to say I love both the Shikkake and this koshirae. Not far off of what I'd eventually like to put together for myself if I'm able. All told seems like an excellent start to a collection!