Natichu

On 1/16/2025 at 10:13 AM, Jacques D. said:

I would love to see a Japanese description of a hamon saying only 刃文 乱れ. I've seen 互の目乱れ or 丁子乱れ but 乱れ never . Unitl i'm proven wrong midareba is not a name of a hamon

Just on that point:

"刃紋：刃紋は小乱れ、小丁子乱れとなり染み心となる。"

The official Japanese description on Aoi for this sword:

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana：mumei-unsigned-attributed-to-ko-aoe-nbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-tokenconsignment-sale/

At any rate, I'm content either way, but was just interesting to see come up (albeit ko-midare). 

2 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

While I agree in general what Jacques is stating, I think there might be bit of language barrier. I believe pretty much all Japanese sources, including Nagayama agree on the 2 type general classification of suguha and midareba. Notare, chōji, gunome and other variations are listed under midareba.

 

Here is a page from Sano Museum book

 

 

Here are pictures from 図説 日本刀用語辞典. There are probably 50+ midareba classified hamon listed in the book, including all basic variations of notare, gunome, chōji and their combinations, and rare unique ones.

 

 

 

 

Here is an end of NBTHK kantei explanation in issue 595 for kantei item in 593 which was tantō by Rai Kunitoshi. I believe in latter part of this it is said, as there were bids on Rai Kunimitsu it is explained that around 6 out of 10 works by Rai Kunimitsu are midareba vs. suguha. Made as a comparison to Rai Kunitoshi whose work is suguha based. As you know Rai school well you will know better than me what NBTHK means by this.

 

 

 

 

It is bit pointless to argue such minor differences in view. In general it is very educating to read threads like these. I am bit ashamed to confess that I don't care too much about the extremely fine details in workmanship that is required for very high level sword appreciation.

As you note Jussi, it's a bit of a taxonomical difference likely without great substance except to those at the highest of levels. For example, in my case, does it matter whether what I can't identify is a hamon type or a hamon subtype? Either way, the nature of the classification is not exactly nearly as important as the fact I can't identify it properly either way LOL. 

3 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Nataniel@

 

Once again, Midareba is not the name of a hamon, but a characteristic common to all hamons. 

ps always beware of interpretations when translating

 

The second thing to look at is what elements make up the hamon. 
exercise:  could you describe the hamon's components (the name of the smith is not what you have to look for)

 

 

I think we're straying well beyond my knowledge and abilities here but I'd say:

Just to close the loop on my previous thought, I can see both the Connoisseur's Guide (page 92) and Facts and Fundamentals (page 44) being somewhat ambiguous, but likely leaning towards Jacques' point overall. 

Given my failing grade thus far, I have to assume I'll be wrong, but:

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

I would love to see a Japanese description of a hamon saying only 刃文 乱れ. I've seen 互の目乱れ or 丁子乱れ but 乱れ never . Unitl i'm proven wrong midareba is not a name of a hamon

An interesting point. Though I would say that just because the specific style of midareba is by convention given, it does not mean the overarching family doesn't exist as such - particularly when the overarching family is referenced. 

Regardless, thank you for continuing the thread, and I look forward to the next set of questions! 

Interesting. I'll have to check my Connoisseurs Guide when I get home, but my recollection is that he states something similar to Markus Sesko in the text. In his Kantei Guide, Mr. Sesko writes:

"First of all, we distinguish between if the hardening is straight or undulating and refer thus to the two main types of a suguha (直刃) and a midareba (乱刃) respectively. According to the actual outline of the hamon, the latter type, i.e. the midareba, is further subdivided into a notareba (湾れ刃・のたれ刃, large waves), gunomeba (互の目刃, larger roundish elements), chôjiba (丁子刃, smaller clove/tassel-shaped elements), or tôranba (濤瀾刃, surging waves). Apart from that, there is the so-called hitatsura (皆焼) where large areas of the blade are hardened. A hitatsura can be based on a notareba, gunomeba, or even a chôjiba, so this term does not refer to a specific hamon outline. "

Best guess (read: you get what you pay for):

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Considering the number of participants, I'm giving up

 

Benjamin has the right solution, the tani are the lowest points of the hamon and the yakigashira the highest, that's why you have to read a hamon horizontally and the cutting edge downwards. 

While I haven't had time to throw in an answer on the latest (I would have been correct on tani, incorrect on the other two), I for one would enjoy you continuing the line of thought. 

I'm not entirely clear on terminology, but as most seem to have interpreted it as physical orientation based on light source, 4.

Thank you very much Jussi! Unfortunately I don't have many books to dip into, so went with internet digging instead. As I found the sword itself, I won't post my guess as that's entirely based on internet luck and not on any kantei knowledge-based skill. But very much enjoyed digging into things over a morning coffee, so thank you! Great way to start the new year. 

20 minutes ago, Okan said:

 

I can. But why?

 

Get better soon! 

It would certainly help us beginners to be able to follow the intellectual footprints of those who got it correct! 

2 hours ago, dimitri said:

It is really very beautiful, unfortunately being in Europe, as usual the taxes will weigh down the bill.

It's really a shame.

Could you give us his sori also please?

The NTHK worksheet lists it as 4 bu (a hair over 1.2cm).

Any chance we could get measurements for the motohaba, sakihaba, and kasane? 

I'd never turn down free, and it does look like a lovely blade. So let me know if you're giving it away to clear out space

Otherwise unfortunately I'm holding funds for an option along another line, but have to say if I wasn't trying to be quite so particular I would have messaged already! 

Wishing you a speedy recovery Jacques! 

Wild and definitely uneducated guess: Echizen no Sukehiro (second generation, pages 1001-1002 in Markus Sesko's "Swordsmiths of Japan"). 

As a complete beginner, I just wanted to say thank you to Jacques for posting these and getting the conversations going. Even though I will only rarely be participating, I will definitely be lurking and appreciate the effort that goes into these. 

3 hours ago, owazamono said:

@Natichu Here is a helluva an example, 2.55 shaku koto tachi, signed and ubu, papered blade and koshirae: https://www.owazamon...-tachi-with-koshirae

 

It's currently a little over budget, but price is negotiable. Feel free to message me through the board or at soheiswords@gmail.com. Happy to help and good luck with your search.

Thanks so much for reaching out. That is definitely a stunning piece. I've also long had my eye on your Hida no Kami Ujifusa as well. If budget ever allows I'll certainly be considering both, but will likely reach out at some point to see what options you might have available. 

Bump, still looking. 

4 minutes ago, nulldevice said:

https://www.tsuruginoya.com/artwork.html Has 5 TJ currently available:

Bizen Osafune Tomomitsu - 18.5M

Osafune Chogi - 20.0M

Osafune Kanemitsu - 17.5M

Soshu Norishige - ???

Saeki Norishige - ???

 

Was just about to start copying some links into the thread. Thank you! 

7 hours ago, Lukrez said:

I would like to thank you for the many feedbacks and observations. In my research, I came across a katana by Masamitsu with very similar blade characteristics, unless any of you have an objection. Are there any plausible theories as to why in both cases the mei was partially removed, so that only the origin remains, but not the smith's name?"

 

https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-token/

I would have thought it was only shortened that much, so only the topmost characters of the mei remain. 

I believe Mike Yamasaki can assist with all of that. You can find all contact info through the Tetsugendo Facebook page (the website is undergoing a renovation at the moment I believe).

https://www.facebook...8820&mibextid=ZbWKwL

47 minutes ago, nulldevice said:

Are there any surviving copies of his blog? I re-read the tribute post to him and there were talks of backing up his content but I don't see anywhere that that happened. 

I would love to read his posts/studies on nihonto and top level swords. His comments here on swords and shinsa from old threads have taught me so much. 

I believe you can access it on the Internet Archive, but also here (a bit more user friendly):

https://onihonto.com...onto-ca-yuhindo-com/

I believe both are lacking many of the photos, but the text is there. 

48 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

It's redundant: all famous swords have been the subject of numerous publications. We learn nothing new.

I'd suggest the photography is likely something new for many, as well as the accessibility. So while it may not expand your knowledge base, it does for many of us earlier in our journey than you are. Not all publications need to be all things to all people to be works of worth. 

Just in case, a Ko-Mihara I've been keeping my eye on but is likely a touch out of my price range:

https://www.samurai-....net/SHOP/P-478.html