Natichu

Good evening all, 

Just perusing Aoi (as I'm sure most of us do), and saw that their latest piece has what they have described as Tensho koshirae:

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana：fujiwara-masahiro-藤原正弘judged-as-osumi-jo-大隅掾nbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-token/

Image attached as well. 

To my mind, this doesn't seem to resemble Tensho koshirae at all. That said, I'm a beginner at best, so wanted to get a sense of whether this was an error on Aoi's part or a complete misunderstanding on my part as to what Tensho koshirae is. As I'm a big fan of what I would say is the more textbook stay (see: Markus Sesko's Koshirae Taiken at pages 213-219), this one caught me rather off-guard. 

Any thoughts or points of education would be very much welcome! 

53 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Not just contrary but name calling, back biting, like I said you don't know so you don't know so you're and Hokey Pokey post really doesn't help you want to leave it lay leave it lay.

I don't know that I need to leave anything to lay. That said, you're entitled to your opinion and me being wrong wouldn't be the first time in any respect. So happy to simply say we disagree about the matter; I've more than said my piece. 

Just now, Stephen said:

If you don't know what the refers to then you're  not up to date what's going on she's been contrary many of times you just don't know so as far as I'm concerned your opinion is not valid

No doubt that may well be the case, and you may well be right. That said, many members are contrary in posts, but the reaction seems somewhat singular. I also caveated that with "in general", indicating some posts may have been contrary. At any rate, as with many things to each their own. The reaction just seems somewhat singular and odd, often derailing otherwise productive threads. 

16 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Forums are getting too weird for me these days.

 

 

And actually, if it is a guy named “Fred” and calling himself “Dee” and going on about art with dicks,  then it is dishonest.

 

If you think thats ok, you can **** off too.

 

 

I have to say, as far as forums getting weird, that might be one of the weirdest posts I've seen in a while! Art with dicks? That all seems a bit over the top. 

35 minutes ago, Hokke said:

 

Curious, do you usually respond repeatedly and favorably towards those whom you do not trust? I fail to see the genesis for such ire towards another member. Last I checked, KungFooey, whomever that may be has done exactly what is normal and expected on an ONLINE forum. This somehow has generated a level of distrust, but why is that exactly? Is this member trying to solicit funds for a project? Is kungfooey trying to sell anything to anyone? Is there a representation of mastery of knowledge? 

Fact of the matter is this, so far as I can see, the only thing kungfooey is guilty of is the occasional provocative post or comment. There have been many like this in the past and likely no shortage in the future. 

You said, "folks like to know who they are talking to". This may be true, but they are NOT ENTITLED to know anything other than what is presented. Kungfooey may actually be a guy named Fred in his mother's basement, but the question remains, how does this matter? I dont have a clue as to the person behind kungfooeys keyboard because it DOESN'T matter, until such a time as it does. Should that day come, it is up to each of us to collect and examine information that allows for an informed decision and even then there is risk because THATS THE WORLD WE LIVE IN.

Shitting on people because your spidey senses are tingling only means something if your senses mean anything to anyone else, which is unlikely because you are not special. So how about you proceed as you have ALREADY and choose to participate with this member or not. Valueless posts about your "trust" are neither entertaining nor useful. 

Was thinking about posting something similar myself, but don't know I would be able to put it any better. In general Dee's posts have been positive and contribute to the community. Could they be someone other then advertised? Sure. But as far things have gone I don't see any cause for the weird animosity. 

11 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

The period where Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon was done in the same session severely reduced the significance of the TH paper. 

I know Jussi and I were briefly discussing this in another thread, and don't know that we ever reached a conclusion. Is it that previously you could submit for both in the same session, and now you can't? Or is it that previously you needed to submit twice to obtain TH, but now can submit only once? 

Any clarification anyone can provide around which way the process shifted and when would be greatly appreciated! 

9 hours ago, singh13 said:

I've got one NTHK papered, however, it's Tenpo period if interested. Comes with its original Koshirae as well ~72cm nagasa (will double check) I can send more pictures if interested

Thanks so much for the offer! Unfortunately I don't think that will quite fit the bill in terms of era and size. But I very much appreciate the chance to consider the option! Photos are always welcome, as it all goes into developing my thoughts on what I'd like to buy. 

38 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Thanks for correction Nathaniel.

 

I am bit ashamed that as a long time member I was clueless that they are accepting shinsa for Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon at the same time again. I think things changed a bit during the Covid times. Pre-Covid I remember you could send for both items at the same time.

https://web.archive....ish/shinsa_fees.html

 

Then after Covid I think it might have been changed, as this is the shinsa page from 2023 and no mention of simultaneous send in.

https://web.archive....english/aboutus.html

 

As I have never sent items to NBTHK I haven't checked that closely as I don't intend to send items. I personally dislike the multiple level certification system but I understand their reasons for it.

 

Certainly not intends as a correction Jussi - as far as I'm concerned, you're much more likely to be right than I am! I figured I had things backwards. Maybe one of the forums more knowledgeable agents/vendors will be able to weigh in to set us straight one way or the other. 

2 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I think in the past one factor was that you could submit the blade for Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon at the same shinsa session. So of course it was logical for good quality items to send for both. Now in the current system you will need to send Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon in different shinsa sessions. That might at least temporarily make some good items "just" Hozon before dealer or owner sends it for higher certification. As NBTHK currently has a monopoly in the certificate business and people like to seek higher papers it is logical that most good blades will go up in their certification system.

 

Here are some old references.

 

These two are to me extremely interesting items.

Yoshimoto tachi - dealer made this Tokubetsu Hozon afterwards but 0 effect on price. Asking price was 5,200,000 yen and this is my favorite of these items

https://www.samurai-...net/SHOP/V-1913.html

Hatakeda Sanemori tachi - this was for sale at 5,000,000 yen asking price, very cool item

https://web.archive....0/info/item/a428.htm

 

Now these 2 are not something I am too much into, to me it seems crazy how attribution to top smith can create a huge price.

 

Mumei katana attributed to Osafune Mitsutada, asking price was 6,900,000 yen

https://web.archive.....net/SHOP/O-630.html

Mumei katana attributed to Kiyomaro with 7,000,000 yen asking price (I was remembering 10M but it might have been another mumei Kiyomaro or my memory fails me as I don't track these more modern items)

https://www.aoijapan...ei-yamaura-kiyomaro/

 

There have been some other amazing items too but they have not have had a public price listed online so I have no idea about their asking price. Of course one thing to consider is that asking prices can vary a lot. There was a flawed Ōdachi with Hozon paper that I was looking out for but it went out of my budget and ended up going bit over 2,000,000 yen. However very quickly it landed to Japanese dealer who had it for 5,800,000 yen asking price, and it was gone super fast.

 

Regarding the shinsa process, I had thought it was the opposite - that previously you had to submit twice to get TH, but could now submit once and have it evaluated at both levels. The NBTHK price listing (https://www.touken.or.jp/english/aboutus.html - see Shinsa Price List) seems to indicate you can do both at once. 

Interesting to see that I've gotten it backwards! Does anyone know when this shift happened? 

Addendum: have done a little digging, and as this was a post-war change, that certainly clears up the timeline. Thanks again Ray! 

Initial post: Many thanks Ray! That certainly explains it. Would you say it's accurate to assume that if I see 広 in a modern source, the smith likely signed with the older form 廣? 

Hi all, 

I've been looking at a few smiths recently with names ending in "-hiro". I've noted that the NBTHK kanteisho (and Markus Sesko's' Swordsmiths A-Z) use the kanji "広", whereas the smiths themselves all seem to have used "廣". In searching on the Nihonto smiths database it looks like there is in fact only one smith with "広" in their name (Munehiro, a Showa era smith). 

Is the reason for this solely because the 廣 kanji is considered archaic? Or is there something else going on here?

Any guidance here would be greatly appreciated. For bonus points, as it were, does anyone know of any other common kanji substitutions used by the NBTHK like this one? 

Images attached for reference. 

Excellent timing, as this just came up in Aoi:

https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi：kawachi-no-kami-fujiwara-kunisuke-first-generationnbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-token/

A shobu zukuri wakizashi (unless you're of the view that unless the shinogi meets the mune directly at the point, it's not a true shobu zukuri), quite lovely to my eye but I'm very partial to that blade shape. 

Many thanks Jussi, these threads have been a lot of fun thus far and a great way for a beginner like me to start to dive into things a bit more, even if it's just to learn about details I didn't even know I should be considering. 

8 hours ago, Robert S said:

It was great fun lurking i this thread.  I don't know nearly enough to even have ventured a guess.  Way to go everyone who did!  One question: Nihon Shinto Shi mentions "shallow Sori".  Looking at that blade, I wouldn't have defined the sori as shallow - more like average... but my eye is probably off.

And don't worry about not knowing enough Robert, you won't do worse than I am and it's good fun to throw your hat into the ring. 

30 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

It seems that Fujishiro himself agrees with me, but if you don't know that the Japanese like shortcuts, you're forgivable.

Shinto Hen par 481.

Unfortunately I can't quite make out the kanji. Any chance of getting the relevant portion typed out? 

2 hours ago, lonely panet said:

I think its a  completely fruitless idea to compare swordsmiths to  painters.

 

Completely different purposes for the use of the end product 

I think it might bear fruit for some. If you have a deep knowledge of painters, it may give you a mental hook or anchoring point to better remember smiths and some of their qualities (scaffolding off your existing knowledge). Or it might help you understand the relative ranking of smiths' skills and prestige.

It doesn't do any of the above for me, but I can see it being both entertaining and helpful for some. After all, someone familiar with swords once said that if you know the way broadly you'll see it in all things. 

38 minutes ago, Mushin said:

 

Just for laughs (and to gauge the burgeoning power of Artificial Intelligence language models) I asked ChatGPT to liken several Japanese swordsmiths to famous European painters. Given my Sōshū prejudices, it is limited but IMHO extremely interesting. The list is by no means comprehensive and is in no way intended to be the final word or anything more than it is, an exercise in curiosity. It’s interesting both from the perspective of machine learning as well as program’s cultivation of facts and opinions. The logic ChatGPT gave for each comparison was particularly insightful and well-reasoned, really, though it was all a bit too lengthy to include here. In some ways, I think these comparisons can be especially useful for newbies trying to understand the importance of certain smiths, offering some relatable comparisons. I encourage others to see where this goes just for fun. In the meantime, here is what the bot came up with:

 

Shintōgo Kunimitsu would be likened to Giotto di Bondone

Sōshū Yukimitsu would be likened to Claude Monet

Saeki Norishige would be likened to Rembrandt van Rijn

Gorō Nyūdō Masamune would be likened to Leonardo Da Vinci

Hikoshiro Sadamune would be likened to Raphael

Chikuzen Samonji would be likened to El Greco

Sōshū Hiromitsu would be likened to Titian

Sōshū Akihiro would be likened to Peter Paul Rubens

Go Yoshihiro would be likened to Michelangleo

Awataguchi Yoshimitsu would be likened to Johan van Eyk

Bizen Masatsune would be likened to Albrecht Dürer

Shizu Saburo Kaneuji would be likened to Michelangelo Buonarroti

Sengo Muramasa would be likened to Michelangelo Mersi da Caravaggio

Horikawa Kunihiro would be likened to Peter Paul Rubens

While I only know a little about smiths, and even less about painters, I very much enjoy the Muramasa-as-Caravaggio casting. 

6 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

It means suguha is mixed in (with) notare . 

 

 

I didn't say the hataraki weren't important. I said they could be overlooked because I haven't yet tackled the subject, which for the moment is the shape of the hamon.

 

 

This one should be easy to find.

 

I certainly understood you to mean that for the purposes of this exercise (and in particular that sword) to ignore hataraki, not that they are to be ignored generally. 

To me, this looks a clean choji-midare into a standard komaru boshi. My recollection of Facts and Fundamentals is that transition strongly points to shinto era, but that's about as far as I can go. 

9 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Answer (you are not so far from being atari)

That is much closer than I thought I might be! Clear proof that even a stopped clock is close enough to right every so often I suppose. Gunome certainly makes more sense than choji. Many thanks, and I look forward to the next portions of the thread. 

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

For those who want to learn, only the hamon drawing is required, the hataraki can be ignored.

Notare of some variety, with occasional choji interspersed? Not entirely sure what the question is, but have a feeling that answer is incorrect. 

20 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Answer by the NBTHK (I wonder where the specialists, who can judge a hamon based on bad photos, are.) 

Last words about Midareba, please check Nagayama's book chapter: attribution on the hamon, page 101 onwards

 

I'm still not sure I follow, but very much appreciate the answer! Interesting to so ko-midare thrown in there as well. 

This was discussed a bit here:

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/49930-a-nihonto-display-case-at-home/#comment-520223

I think as a beginner like myself it's easy to lose sight of the fact that there is a lot of diversity of views in the hobby. While in have no doubt @ROKUJURO@ROKUJURO is entirely correct as to the orthodox take on things, katana and tachi kake clearly exist for a reason, and there are Japanese companies doing beautiful work on displays, such as:

https://en.katana-case-shi.com/

Food for thought at least. Even if you're straying outside the orthodox position, it doesn't mean it's not in keeping with at least some Japanese collectors. 

At any rate, I'm with the group and happy to drop the point to see where the thread goes, and appreciate the effort to educate by Jacques and his perspective. 

7 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

OK... Small regular Gunome are called DOEI BA; What does it mean ?

Precisely that. Which, as the intro clause to that paragraph makes clear ("Gunome-midare:...") as well as the outro ("...this kind of gunome-midare work.") is a form of gunome-midare. So the regularity doesn't move it out of the midareba category it would seem, at least by Nakahara's version of things. At least that is my reading of it, so it isn't worth much. But given the Socratic nature of these proceedings, that's what we seem to be stuck with at the moment. 

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Or how to contradict yourself (Nakahara's book page 47)

With respect, no one is arguing gunome-midare doesn't exist. How does this prove your point or show a contradiction? Naming the specific (ie the subtype) doesn't mean the general (ie overarching type) doesn't exist as a category. 

Again, this isn't to say I think (or even have the knowledge base) to say you're wrong, just that I don't think the pieces you've put forward logically support your position. 

At any rate, I look forward to the reading of the hamon in Monday.