Natichu

1 hour ago, Jacques said:

It is more relevant to judge a smith on the basis of his entire career than to judge one or another sword. The subtlety lies in knowing which are the best works of a particular smith, which the vast majority of collectors can't do.

That certainly is a depth of knowledge that I imagine escapes most. Is there a particular smith then, knowledge of whom you'd put at the heart of your learning? Or a unifying theme among the smiths you have chosen to focus on? 

38 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I know that people like to take jabs at Jacques as his blunt style can be bit unforgiving, however he knows a lot in general. I admit that I was wrong and like Jacques said NBTHK do indeed use naginata-naoshi even for ubu swords just made in style of real naginata-naoshi. I had previously thought it would be just reserved for actual former polearms.

 

Here is what I would call just katana but NBTHK calls it naginata-naoshi in Jūyō 31. I was trying to find latest reworked polearm as was asked by Michael on the last page. I was doing quick browse of my Jūyō list and thought I hit a quite modern reworked polearm with this Nobuhide that was made in 1863. I was very puzzled as to me this is just an ubu katana, not a former polearm, and in the nakago description NBTHK even just states this for it: 茎 - 生ふ, 先栗尻, 鑢目浅い勝手下り, 目釘孔一, 指表目釘孔から一字上げて, 棟寄りにやや大振りの三字銘があり, 裏は目釘孔から三字上げて, 棟寄りに同じく年紀がある.

 

 

This terminology thing is bit fundamental problem as there are not that clear guidelines anywhere. Some organizations use some terms while others use other ones. That is one of the reason I personally just use naginata as the general term for all polearm blade types. However various organizations, museums, shrines, temples etc. can use these terms.

 

Naginata - 薙刀

Naginata-naoshi - 薙刀直し

Nagamaki - 長巻

Nagamaki-naoshi - 長巻直し

Nagatō - 長刀

Ōdachi - 大太刀

 

Some organizations use some terms almost exclusively for koshirae and some for blades, while other organizations can do both ways. The actual lines for these are at least to me somewhat blurred. Mounting type will of course matter in combination but there are items that do not have original mountings left anymore. So to me it is better not to stress too much. Even though I mentioned the term nagatō I would not think using it is good thing. It is extremely rarely used, I have mostly seen few shrines use that term. As far as NBTHK i regarded I have pretty much only seen them use it in relation to koshirae, and then it seems to me almost interchangeable with nagamaki koshirae. So far I have only seen 1 Tokubetsu Hozon feature this classification on top of my head.

 

Jacques also posted another extremely interesting Yoshikage blade, I will need to write another post about it. I checked and I currently have that particular blade featured in 13 different refences (that is good and bad thing with high level items that they appear in so many places while I would want to uncover new unknown items).

Though one wrinkle there - in the item I highlighted earlier, the nakago is described as ubu, but the setsumei makes clear it has been shortened. So while the blade hasn't been shortened or reshaped (and so likely is what it isn't a naoshi) with the nakago moved up, the tail of the tang was cut down. So while ubu, the tang is modified. 

Is it possible that is the case here? 

4 hours ago, Jacques said:

So what ? Is it a proof it is a real naginata naoshi ? No. 

I noticed that on the shijo kantei NBTHK mentions naginata naoshi only (boshi are yakitsume) if it's a waki, waki is added. which makes me think (until proven otherwise) that on the papers (hozon etc) NBTHK encompasses both real naoshi and those made in the style just as they don't differentiate between generations of blacksmiths.

Unless, of course, they're satisfied that despite modification to the nakago there has been no modification to the kissaki, and so leaving the kaeri, in which case they continue to refer to it as a naginata:

https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashibizen-kuni-ukai-ju-unjuthe-16th-nbthk-juyo-token/

Discussed here:

Seeems like in the case you're proposing, if they were going to be duped surely they'd be more likely to continue to refer to blade as a naginata simpliciter, rather than as a balde that has undergone naoshi?

4 hours ago, Jacques said:

I found these 2 naginata the first one is by Nagamitsu (Kamakura Bizen) the second one is by Kagemitsu (Kamakura Bizen) it is obvious that if you practice a naoshi on these naginata the boshi will disappear (Same for all the examples I already shared)

@Jacques, I don't think anyone above is arguing against the idea that in many, if not most, cases the naoshi process will mean the kaeri is lost. The rule of thumb is likely that one identifying feature of a naginata-naoshi is the fact the boshi is yakizume. However, what I think is being pointed out is this is not inevitable or universal, as there are examples showing exceptions to the rule. That is, blades that have been determined to be naginata-naoshi by a panel of experts with the blade in hand showing an (admittedly) small kaeri.

Can I tell you what the process is that leads to this? Not in any meaningful way (we're both well aware of my very limited knowledge base), though my hypothesis would be this is likely possible based in the exact shape and geometry of the original blade, which could vary significantly while still being a naginata. But I would certainly defer to the opinion of the experts with blade in hand in saying clearly it is possible.

Very much appreciate the guide and all the work that went into it @Rivkin. And if you do go the newsletter route, sign me up! 

8 hours ago, bloodycarrots said:

New question. Does this price seem fair for what is on offer? Also, why is there a hard line on the tang of the long sword? Was that bit of metal added to the tang after the fact to lengthen it?

 

https://rva-katana.com/products/antique-nihonto-daishou-katana-early-edo-unsigned-and-wakizashi-late-muromachi-signed-bishu-osafune-sukesada-not-verified

While I'm too new to say in terms of the blades (which to me look somewhat tired/out of polish), I have to imagine you're going to be paying a significant premium for daisho koshirae even if it's only of middling quality (not saying this is a true daisho obviously, but rather a matched set of koshirae). Is that where you'd like to allocate your funds? No problem at all if it is, but I think it's just important to be aware of where the money is going to ensure you're getting the best bang for your buck. 

So to me the more important question (something I'm constantly trying to ask myself) is what is it that you want to buy, and why does this option fulfill whatever criteria it is that you've set? 

I think the usual advice to us beginners is to take our time, develop our knowledge base and delve into some specific areas of interests, and buy to further those interests. 

If all you want is antique blades in koshirae for an ok price, that isn't a problem or anything to be scoffed at. With hobbies sometimes it's nice just to feel like you have a bit of skin in the game, learn what you can, and see where that takes you. But I think it would help the more knowledgeable people here (read: definitely not me) in giving you advice to understand what it is you hope to get out of making a purchase. 

I would add Token Komachi as well, plenty of swords in more reasonable price range, and Ms. Tsukada is excellent to deal with and speaks very good English. She is also highly responsive to emails. English listings here:

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana.html

If you're following for updates of new additions, best to do so in Japanese:

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index.html

Yes, there is the concern around lead time from Japan, but it is what it is. 

25 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Well, then use a longer wire!

To that end, bonsai wire comes in long spools, is nicely malleable, and is often somewhat readily available. Likely to be much better to work with than a wire hanger. 

On 3/10/2025 at 7:32 AM, Natichu said:

Thank you very much for that info. I hadn't heard of the book, so this was all news to me. While it does look like it's available digitally, I felt I'd prefer a physical copy so emailed Me-no-me. I heard back from them within the hour, and have a copy on the way to me shipped out the same day I ordered. Absolutely excellent experience thus far! 

The book arrived the day before yesterday. All told a very welcome addition to my library. Certainly more advanced than the more beginner texts I have, but lots to learn from it. Thus far, I'd certainly recommend it (particularly at the price point of the digital edition). 

A current auction listing for a TH wakizashi I assume is the smith in question, with a reasonably good picture of the nakago:

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2025/important-Japanese-swords-and-armour-from-the-paul-l-davidson-collection/a-wakizashi-signed-izumi-no-kami-fujiwara-kunisada

18 hours ago, nulldevice said:

https://club.menomeonline.com/products/book-yamatoden-en

They have an order form for overseas customers. I paid 11,000¥ shipped to the US for my copy (5,500¥ for the book and 5,500¥ for shipping). 

 

I've seen 2 of these books sell for something like 25,000¥ on Aoi recently when you can just order it right from the publisher in Japan for less than half that. 

 

Only the Yamato den book has been translated to English so far. I believe Markus is working on the Bizen den book as we speak and I've heard it might be available sometime later this year. 

Thank you very much for that info. I hadn't heard of the book, so this was all news to me. While it does look like it's available digitally, I felt I'd prefer a physical copy so emailed Me-no-me. I heard back from them within the hour, and have a copy on the way to me shipped out the same day I ordered. Absolutely excellent experience thus far! 

While I have no experience with him, I have often looked at the goods offered by @Artur DrogaMiecza here through his Flickr page:

Some lovely koshirae seems to be available on occasion (including a wakizashi one I'm now sad I didn't pick up!) 

12 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

As it is dated it is extremely rare item. I did a presentation on Kamakura & Nanbokuchō naginata few years ago. Back then I had found 38 dated Kamakura & Nanbokuchō naginata & naoshi. Now I assume I have found few more since then but I think the number still remains under 50 in total.

 

There are actually many old naginata that are around 40 - 50 cm in blade length. It is perfectly legitimate length and I personally own one dated Nanbokuchō naginata in this length range. However this is not my preferred size and shape range. And for Aoi Art blade the fact that the nakago has been cut makes this particular piece not that desirable for myself. Naginata in general are not really appreciated in traditional Japanese collecting/appreciation lore, which will explain the lower price they usually go for. As Steve said earlier NBTHK terminology has changed over the years. As the nakago has been cut so severely I personally would see this more as naoshi than a naginata even though the blade portion would be unaltered. For example I own another Nanbokuchō naginata that I believe to be suriage, the current blade length is 49,4 cm but the nakago is still 42,5 cm, so the sword still remains as a naginata. I just checked old naginata that I have data for and I have quite a lot of them. I found only 3 Kamakura & Nanbokuchō naginata with nakago under 20 cm, they were all NBTHK Jūyō and originally with much longer nakago (personally I would question if they are still naginata with such a short tang). Also found 2 early Edo naginata with similarily short nakago.

 

 

Here you can see another Naginata (this one is naoshi) by Unjū that is made around the same time. This one is much larger and appealing to me a lot more personally. By somewhat funny coincidence it was also sold by Aoi almost 15 years ago. https://web.archive.org/web/20110408142928/http:/www.aoi-art.com:80/sword/sale/10599.html

 

One thing that I can try to figure out by looking at these two very differently sized naginata (they are only signed naginata by Unjū I have seen so far), is the fact that it seems Unjū started his signature on naginata very high up on the tang. So in case of shortening the tang lot of the mei can still be preserved.

Many thanks for the insight @Jussi Ekholm, I'll have to pick your brain at some point on the naginata front as at some point I'd like to pick one up! I'd have to agree, with such a short nakago it doesn't seem likely they'd still be viable as a polearm. Good to know that the terminology shifts, and it isn't a precise science as it were. 

Just now, Jacques said:

No the kissaki is ubu (kaeri)

That was certainly my impression! I didn't see anything about the kissaki being reshaped in the setsumei, but I don't think my Japanese is up to the task one way or the other. 

2 hours ago, SteveM said:

... 

I'd just note to Nathaniel not to expect consistency in sword or tosogu terminology, especially with these earlier papers. It's maddening, but one learns to live these oddities.

 

Thank you for the reminder on that point. It seems like one needs to simply get used to "the vibe of the thing" (for those that have watched The Castle), and take a blade on its own terms, rather than worrying too much about the words attached. 

2 hours ago, sabiji said:

Yes, the Kissaki has been reshaped! You can actually see that the mune slopes down towards the Ha. It also says in the origami that the moto saki has been “cut”.

Even more interesting that both the nakago and kissaki have been reshaped (presumably to facilitate use as a wakizashi) and yet it still remains a naginata sans naoshi, as it were. Many thanks to you and @Geraint for shining some light on this! 

Many thanks all. Clearly I have a lot of learning to do, but this is an interesting starting point as I have a strong interest in naginata and naginata-naoshi. 

@Jacques, are you able to provide any snippets of the zufu where this is listed as a wakizashi? Would that be a bit of a rarity for it to be listed differently than in the origami? I've never had the chance to see the zufu before (unless the page I've added above is from those books, in which case my apologies for misunderstanding!). 

Good evening all, 

In continuing my reading and review of the usual sites we all undoubtedly frequent, I came across this piece on Aoi that raised a lot of questions in my mind relating to how the NBTHK categorizes things:

https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-token/

Photo of the origami and juyo setsumei attached as well. 

So, as one can see the blade is currently in wakizashi koshirae. However, it has been categorized as a naginata, not a naginata-naoshi. If my Japanese is correct, the juyo setsumei indicates that the nakago is ubu, but also that it is cut down ("生ぶ、先を切り詰める"). The original mei remains. The kissaki has a kaeri and so as far as I understand it hasn't been reshaped. 

Questions I have for the members of the forum:

1) As this is now in wakizashi koshirae, with nakago modified to make that happen, why is this not a naginata-naoshi? Is this because the kissaki hasn't been reshaped? 

2) What makes a nakago ubu? In this case, it has been cut down, and so it isn't unaltered. But I assume it hasn't been moved up the blade (though I've also seen blades with machiokuri listed as ubu). 

I appreciate all of this likely is me simply trying to be a bit more fixed in categories than is helpful. But the blade, fittings, and paperwork just stuck in my brain in odd ways, and thought it might make a good set of learning points for me. 

Any insight anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated! 

11 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

"

Tahnk you for your email.

What makes a Koshirae Tensho in style is its handle.

 

The handle is winding in the middle to ensure a secure grip during the war fight. It is more opactical than the straight handle.

 

Kind regards,

Aoi Art"

 

I think they are saying it is the waisted shape of the Tsuka but I don't see it. I might be inlined to call this a Kobusho koshirae rather than Tensho...

 

-t

t is for Tom

Thank you very much for posting their response! Certainly the ryugo waisted style is an element of Tensho koshirae, but I would not have thought was enough on its own to fit the bill - Markus Sesko, for example, gives a few more what I would have thought defining characteristics.  Tsuruta-san undoubtedly knows more than I do though, so appreciate the insight. 

3 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Email sent so we will see what they say. They are usually quite happy to answer any questions.

-t

Many thanks Thomas, that is very much appreciated! 

12 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Why doesnt somebody ask Tsuruta san?

Not something that had occurred to me! I had assumed there was a real chance that I was simply wrong in my understanding, so felt more comfortable exposing my ignorance here rather than writing directly to Tsuruta-san (with whom I don't have any existing relationship) to ask for clarification. 

9 hours ago, jsv said:

Red saya and leather wrapped handle is a sub group of tensho koshirae but the fittings are not.

 

 

 

Tony

Very interesting! Not something I've heard before, so very much appreciate it. I assume something along these lines would fit the bill? 

https://www.flickr.c...s/72177720321619029/

15 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Nathaniel,

but stylistically, it does not look like TENSHO, and it probably does not have the age, so there must be another point.

Certainly. Glad to know I wasn't totally out to punch thinking that didn't appear to be what I'd describe as a Tensho-style koshirae. 

1 hour ago, MauroP said:

I have to disagree. The paper cover just  the blade. And Tensho koshirae refers to some stylistic characters, not to the age that koshirae was actually assemblee.

 

That was certainly my take, both the reference to Tensho and mine to Momoyama - stylistic rather than an age statement. 

4 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

How very gauche for Tensho....!

I would have thought it was more of the oft-referenced ostentatious Momoyama style koshirae, but glad to know that I'm not the only one that thought it was somewhat loud!