Kaigunto230

Thank you so much, Maxime! I hadn’t seen it, and that was a great piece. I particularly liked seeing the live-in aspect of apprenticeship, the challenges there, and bond formed between student and sensei (not always built on positive reactions to each other).

Is the display going to be up the whole time or just for one day? I’m coming Saturday and would love to see it, particularly if it’s accompanied by a lecture.

And yes, the sword does yell “I’m a fake” (glancing again, I see the lack of yokote, the “same” ( 😬 ), the tzukamaki, etc. etc. ), and people’s time is limited for commenting. I just know as a fellow beginner, it can be helpful to point out specifics to focus on and think “OH, that is totally fake when I see the real ones side by side.”

For Arnold’s (and everyone’s) sake, instead of just saying “it’s an obvious fake, hit the books,” can we please list some things that helped you identify it as a fake? Not all, but here’s what I saw right away: 1. Kanji on the mei was too spread out, on both sides, funkily chiseled (if it even WAS chiseled), and not normally recognizable characters (katakana?) 2. Thought the erotic scene on the kozuka was very out of place, and the figures themselves were too crude. 3. Kogatana’s blade shape was odd; the sori looked almost fantasy-like with the carved-out area. 4. Rust on nakago was an odd color, too bright. 5. Loose/missing seppas 6. seemed like the habaki and blade were off-center through the tsuba There are others certainly, but I think it’s helpful to take an extra few seconds to point out the WHY instead of always pointing towards the books without further context.

@IbexiSterlinfa any further developments on this one? I’d love to hear if you submitted for shinsa and the results.

This was incredible. Not only the story itself, but Ian, you’re a great writer and drew me in the whole time; I felt like it was me doing the discovery. Thank you and congratulations!

This has been a great discussion all around to be a fly on the wall for. Jon, good luck with your purchase; they all look gorgeous! Thomas, could you please say a little more about Shinto blades and why condition is relatively more important for them than for swords of other eras?

This topic is so interesting to me. Has anyone run into similar stories regarding their own swords? I'd love to see photos and hear what you know. Here's a good scholarly article on revenge killings in the Edo era: Kataki-Uchi - The Practice of Blood-Revenge in Pre-Modern Japan by D.E. Mills.pdf And here's a podcast on the same: https://radiopublic.com/samurai-archives-Japanese-history-GA5rdp/s1!65f68

I posed in my member introduction that I lived in Japan for two and half years a couple years ago, and during that time, we were lucky enough to travel to a bunch of museums. I promised I would post some interesting stories from our travels. This one's the most interesting, and I'm kicking myself that I don't have better photos of the blade itself for us to study the sword's characteristics. Even so, I think it's still an incredibly interesting story. This was at the Odawara Castle museum in Kanagawa prefecture. The two Asada brothers had their father murdered by a Narutaki Mansuke, who escaped from jail and fled. The brothers received permission from their daimyo and hunted down Mansuke and murdered him in revenge. Here's the sword used during the killing as well as more information: Edit: I posted this in the Nihonto thread because of the sword itself, but Brian/Admin, please feel free to move it to a different thread if you think it's more appropriate. Thank you!

@mtexter I wanted to follow up on this thread. Did you ever get any photos of the actual blades or learn anything further rom these? Thanks!

Chris, thank you! It was from a local antiques dealer that always has great stuff but usually far more pricey than things are worth. This time around, I got to turn the tables on them, and we both ended up with a deal (he cleared some space in the crowded front case, and I got a great piece of history). When he told me the price, I was taken aback, but I even managed to haggle him down $50. I think I'm going to hold onto it for awhile, as I love the Navy connection. Maybe some day though!

Are dealers at tables interested in purchasing/trading from non-dealers? It feels odd to walk up to someone and go “Hey buddy, wanna buy a sword?” but I’m wondering if I should bring an Army Gunto to sell and save on shipping etc. Which brings me to a second question. From this nice walkabout video from 2016, it seems gunto (or at least Gunto mounts) are for sale. Is it largely traditional Nihonto (my guess), or does the convention have Japanese militaria as well? Again, thank you all for your time in replying. I’m getting SO excited, and this is all very helpful.

Bruce, I’m out of town for a week, so this is the best I’ve got; it’s close enough to see some detail though. I think the leather is cowhide but am not sure.

Dave, thanks for sharing! I can’t quite see. What’s the material on the tsuka - is it same or leather like mine?

Bruce, that whole thread is great! Thank you for pointing me that way. Your research on the contract with the PX was so interesting! That certainly complicates finding authentic Gunto. The single-hanger confused me too at the antique store, but everything else seemed legitimate, and the price was so good, I went with it. The shop has another sword, this one Army, also for $600. I’m saving my money for the Token Kai and actually getting a Nihonto, but it seems a shame to let it go for that little, even though that one’s same and saya are a little worn. At the modern Yokosuka U.S. Navy base, our version of the PX (the Navy Exchange (NEX)) has a Japanese souvenir section. Some of the goods are locally made and quite nice. Others, to include several junk Amazon-quality katanas, are not so good. However, my office had special cause to look closely at these swords after this incident happened: https://www.stripes.com/theaters/asia_pacific/sailor-convicted-in-drunken-sword-attack-on-bystander-at-yokosuka-laundromat-1.584777 . Always something crazy happening 😬

Thank you! This is exactly the advice I was looking for. The last thing I want is to open my bad and find… nothing on the other end. Thank you!

John, totally fine! I think we all have an obligation to try to stop shenanigans like that. That’s exactly what my wife said about missing his ship's sailing. I suppose we’ll never know. Interesting to think about the officer who owned it. That concept and connection is part of the magic of this topic.

Woah, woah, woah everyone No, I don’t intend to go start whacking at trees etc. My idea of “testing” was using a replacement thumb to press hard, like a hotdog and cleaning it immediately afterwards. My mistake on the word choice; I imagine this community sees a lot of tragedies of the “testing” variety. Aside from my being a good student of history, Id like to think I’m a good steward of history as well. If I wanted a toy, I wouldn’t be spending this much money on it. The importance of its sharpness is a historical curiosity, not a need to have it sharp today. It’s not a parade blade (correct me if I’m wrong), so why isn’t it sharp? You wouldn’t issue a gun that doesn’t fire. I don’t need it to be sharp, and with family at home, it’s better that it’s not.

Interesting! That makes sense that there’s not an extra step. I’ve touched my thumb to it but haven’t pressed hard (for obvious reasons 😂 - it’s a Gunto and not Nihonto but “razor sharp” is always the buzzword you hear), but it feels like it couldn’t cut anything. I’ll have to do some more tests.

My wife hypothesized that it was un-sharpened upon order/creation and the officer never got around to sharpening it upon issue. Again, that makes sense in the naval context (not many needs/opportunities while underway), but it would strike me as adding an extra layer of work unnecessarily to have the sword purchaser sharpen it instead of the smith/factory upon creation.

I'd like to circle back on my sword. It's been intriguing to me that the blade is very dull. Ha ha, the results of my paper-cutting test do not bear repeating here. Does the dulling of a blade occur naturally over time, and if so, would it have happened from the end of WWII to now? Or, if not dulled naturally, was it simply never sharpened? It makes more sense in the Navy than the Army to have a sword without a sharpened blade given seaborne duty, but this isn't a parade sword, and given the leather saya, it seems like this was at least intended for combat conditions. Does anyone have any thoughts or run into this before?

Thomas, oh fun! I first read "demonstrations" as the ordered and polite protests that occasionally happen outside the gate against the U.S. Navy having nuclear-powered aircraft carriers there. On second read, now I'm wondering if you mean some type of showcasing of iaido, Nihonto, etc? As for the Meiji-era book, it is interesting, but it probably is more general resource on the military history of the period than Nihonto specifically. It's the guidebook to a fascinating exhibit put on by the Yokohama Archives of History Museum that documented the transformation from late Edo to late Meji Japanese military. Lots of documentary history that covered uniform changes (where the tie-in to this subject comes in as the government changed who could carry what type of swords and what those swords looked like). Also, the guidebook has less English than the exhibit itself. I just tried Googling for a link to the exhibit/possibly the book with no luck, sorry.

Thomas, that sounds great! Jokes aside, my wife's an artist and will love seeing a new angle to Japanese art in Nihonto. That there will be other art at all is just a great bonus! We're getting very excited. Kirill, ooh, I hadn't even thought of bringing cash. Do any dealers bring Squares or other card-accepting devices? I'm not necessarily keen on walking about San Francisco with thousands of dollars on my person. Also, in case others hadn't run across this, I found a coupon for $3 off admission: https://www.nihonto.com/31st-tokenkai/ .

Hello everyone, Michael Seeley here! I've been reading and browsing this thread for a few months and wanted to introduce myself. I'm originally from IA but live out in northern WA state for now. I'm a longtime student of history, particularly military history; I focused on Napoleonic and Ancient in college, but I've always been fascinated by Japan and their martial traditions. After law school, I joined the Navy Judge Advocate General's Corps, and I was stationed in Yokosuka (about two hours south of Tokyo) and Sasebo (west of Nagasaki) for a few years. During my time there, I went to as many museums as possible and saw the most gorgeous Nihonto on display. I've got some pictures of some very interesting stories from out of the way museums that I should post here. For instance, Odawara had a katana that was used for a revenge killing by a son after years of searching for his father's murderer. Now that I'm back in the States and have a bit more time and money, I've really started academically studying Nihonto. My book collection includes these; I'm off to a good start but need to invest in more titles. And here's my nascent collection of all periods/types, which includes a Type 97 Kai Gunto, a 1700s smallsword (I'm a fencer), my own Naval uniform sword, a locally-made sword cane, Kris (my leave travels in Asia), an Arisaka bayonet, and a shinai for kendo. With the naval connection, I'm very interested in late-Meiji/Russo-Japanese War-era mounts, as I love the meeting of East and West with the beauty of traditional blades. I posted that I'm going to be at the San Francisco Token-Kai in August, and I'm very much looking forward to meeting you all! Thanks for all you do for the historical community.

Grey, thank you! All great tips, and the NBTHK website has a lot of great info. I’d love to meet up. I found your online store some times back from the Japanese Sword Index, and saw your note about bringing a book in your bag if you have room. There’s a couple I’m eyeing, so I’ll shoot you an email here in a couple weeks if I decide on one. And if you don’t have any space, that’s totally fine! Particularly because the one I think I’m most likely to buy is a doozy page-count-wise 😬 (Dawson’s Cyclopedia. I really enjoy Kyu Gunto mounts and am hoping to see some at the show). Mark, are you sharing the table with Grey, or is that a different Mark? Thank you as well! It seems a lot of the handling advice boils down to “have good situational awareness/be mindful and be intentional about your actions,” and I think that fits quite well with the rest of Japanese culture. And as for interacting with dealers and hosts, just some plain ole good manners and being considerate goes a long way!