Kaigunto230

That's what I thought too! I'm an absolute novice at reading mei/determining gimei, but between the kiku which I thought looked amateurish (which struck me as odd given its importance) and that brightness, I was worried.

Yeah, that's what I figured. When it was $300, I thought it'd be neat to have a late Edo piece with some interesting lineage history, but after it started jumping, and without papers, and in that rough polish, etc. etc. Shifting the topic a little bit, how do folks approach auctions? I feel like it's very easy to find a large antiques/militaria auction and instantly want to buy everything. When you're not holding the pieces in hand to study, I worry you can go overboard quickly. I'm glad I didn't here.

I stared at this one for awhile today, trying to do some research on the fly. Had a shinsa worksheet but no origami, and I worried that the middle of the kiku's circle was off, being too uneven and larger than others I've seen (i.e. potentially a later-added gimei). Then the bidding went north of my $500 mental limit, and I let it go. Thoughts? Did all but one of us miss out on a good one? https://bid.sofedesignauctions.com/lots/view/4-39AP3I/late-edo-Japanese-samurai-wakizahi-sword-in-old-shira-saya

@Gakusee Just closed a few minutes ago for $7500 (plus shipping and 23% buyer premium, so north of $9200). *low whistle* https://bid.sofedesignauctions.com/lots/view/4-39AP2I/rare-koto-era-Japanese-samurai-tanto-dagger-signed-rai-kunitoshi-circa-1300s EDIT: Sorry, this was the one @NihontoCollector was looking at, not the original one that led to this thread.

@JohnTo Incredibly interesting to me to see essentially the same design on multiple tsuba. Makes you wonder if there was a particular workshop who perfected the design, or if it was relatively common motifs incorporated widely.

I was in the neighborhood so I stopped by to look at it again. Having checked Dawson’s in between, it’s definitely an Army sword. That said, the wear on the blade was a lot worse even than my photos showed, so I passed. I’m learning a good rule: there will always be another sword.

Thank you, all!

I recently purchased a couple Nihonto and also own a kaigunto, and I want to care for them in the best possible way to preserve their longevity. I attended Mr. Grey Doffin's wonderful care and etiquette lecture at the Token Kai, and the JSS/US packet he handed out has also been useful. However, I had a few quick questions. 1. Grey mentioned using microfiber cloths for removing oil instead of uchiko. Can one also use a microfiber cloth to apply the oil to the swords? Or should that be a clean tissue for application, switch to microfiber when removing the excess, and finally using a microfiber when cleaning everything off for study/appreciation? 2. Gunto - Is the oiling of a gunto the same as a Nihonto? Thank you for the help!

This is a great thread! I have a Kai-gunto made by Inaba and haven't done my homework well enough, so I appreciate the kickstarter, @Kolekt-To!

@Spartancrest That’s so interesting to see basically the same tsuba with a couple small variations. Thank you! Looks like I’ve got some reading to do.

Ha ha, I was even there (obviously 😉) and I want more.

@Kurikata It was fun searching and searching and then finding it and thinking, "Wow, that's so beautiful, and it has to have so much history. I would be honored to own that." I'm so glad I got the chance. Oh, wow, I would love if it was connected to Hizen. I lived there for six months and think Kyushu is incredible. What makes you think it might be? Thanks so much for the reply!

@Tanto54 Thank you so much! The more you know. I figured they weren't mon because there were so many of them; that makes a lot of sense. My other guess is that the triangular shape between the dragons in Mt Fuji. Even though it's faded a bit, I love the inlay work.

@PNSSHOGUN Thank you! It does look a little worn, doesn't it? Do you think the price goes up a bunch for less worn versions? I'm interested in the Type 19s, but given the dull blade, etched hamon etc., I'm not willing to probably spend over $300. As to Army v. Police, do you have an opinion?

As we were finishing our time living in Japan, I didn't have enough money (or knowledge, frankly) to purchase a Nihonto from one of the shops, so I decided to look for a tsuba. There's a massive, monthly shrine-sale near Atsugi, Kanagawa right outside a train station (perhaps Ebina Station?). Allegedly some of the proceeds go towards the local shrine, but I don't actually have a lot of faith that this happens; I think that is likely a thing of the past. Regardless, it's a great place to go to look for Japanese antiques at good prices. I picked up this tsuba in January 2019 and have treasured it since. It seems smaller, so I'm guessing it's for a wakizashi. It measures 2.75 inches tall and 2.5 inches wide. On one side, it has water dragons, and on the other it has five shapes. Perhaps they are mon, but they seem too artistic. Can anyone please tell me anything further about this tsuba? I'd love to know what the shapes represent or guesses on region of origin or age. I do enjoy tsuba but don't have any reference books in my library, so I really appreciate the assist.

I found this at a local antique shop, and I'm considering purchasing it. However, I'd like to acquire an Army sword rather than a Police sword. The shop lists it as a Police sword, but to my novice's eye, it's got characteristics of both. On the decorative guard, it has (although faded) the Army's 10-petal Sakura shape instead of the Police's 5 petal (check out Dawson's page 300). However, looking at the backstrap decoration (which I wish I had gotten a better photo of), it appears to be the 5-petal Sakura. That said, it doesn't match any of the Police backstraps on Dawson page 301. But then again, I can't find any Army swords that have a 5-petal design on the lower backstrap. Fuller and Gregory page 65 (Military Swords of Japan) has a rubbing of an Army sword with the 5-petal backstrap, but it's on the upper portion. So, what do you think? First, is it Army or Police? And secondly, $159 (including tax) isn't a bad price, right? Seems like that's about the going rate or even a little under. This one has some wear but not horrible.

And here's my second kantei of my other purchase from the show:

Hmm, interesting. The dealer told me it was suriage, so that could be confirmation bias on my part. That said, the judgement came from the fact that there's two mekugiana, and the nakago feels stubby. It's small enough that you almost can't get a full fist around it. Given the length of the sword, that seems off. Lastly, the sugata shape seemed like it was missing a bit of its curvature. Could you please say a bit more on why you think it's ubu? Other than that gap, the nakago in the shirasaya feels perfect. Maybe that's not a strike after all.

@Shugyosha and @Geraint, thank you for the reply and discussion on Kaga nakago jiri. I had seen discussion of that while researching and just forgot to include. That's another strike here. As to the smith, personally, I have doubts that he exists. I did the same on Google for awhile, and the online databases. If either of you has Sesko's Index A-M, the entry would be on page 145. Google books preview, Murphy's Law, of course you get all the pages right around there but not that particular one. @Stephen I also got a private message about the nagasa and sori measurement, so I realize the photo must be misleading. I measured correctly, just have the measuring tape going past the nakago. I found it difficult to hold the tape and the sword, so I extended and locked the tape past the nakago and then just wrote down the proper nagasa measurement. Regarding habaki - I couldn't get it off and didn't want to damage either, so I left it in place and did the best I could. There's a margin of error on motohaba and motokasane, but I think I compensated okay for the habaki in place and think I made the right call in not trying to force it off (left the hammer in the toolbox )

Here's my kantei of the sword. My gut tells me the sayagaki doesn't match (biggest problem is the fit within the shirasaya and the nagasa measurement), but to my amateur's eye, the sword does exhibit many Kachu traits. Who knows? Thank you again so much for the help!

I. Introduction This is the second of two posts of my first attempts at doing kantei. I purchased two katana at the recent San Francisco Token Kai. I laid out my goals for the show and the results of my first kantei here: In addition to the sword above, for a small amount more, the dealer added a mumei katana in somewhat tired polish. However, this sword was not in such bad polish that I couldn't learn from it. In fact, its hamon is clearly visible, and the attributes are different from my first sword. As a result, I found it well worth my money to add another in-hand studying piece. Here's the two side by side: In addition, this sword provided an intriguing sayagaki. The dealer did not know if the sayagaki matched the actual sword in the shirasaya, and I priced it accordingly. The sayagaki describes the sword's nagasa as being 66.5 cm and attributes it to Kashū Kanemune saku (加州兼宗作). More discussion on the sayagaki in Section V below. II. My Kantei Brief Overall Description: Mumei Katana with "Kanemune" Sayagaki Shirasaya length: 93 cm Overall length: 74.8 cm Nagasa lengh: 61.4 cm Kasane length: 0.7 cm Mekugiana: 2 Mihaba: 2.7 cm Motohaba: 2.8 cm Sakihaba: 1.9 cm Motokasane: 0.7 cm Weight: unknown (didn't have a proper scale) Sugata shape: Shinogi-zukuri Hada: itame mixed with mokume Sori: 2.0 cm; Type: Torrizori Kissaki: Chu-kissaki Mune: Iori Hamon: Midare/Notare: O-Notare near hamachi but transitions to gunome midare near kissaki Yakiba: Nioi with Nie Boshi: Ko-maru Sagari Nakago: Suriage; Futsu-gata with Ha-agari Kuri-juri tip Yasurime: Kattesagari Bohi: N/A Koshirae: shirasaya Polish: Original/Old Period: I'm at a loss. Listed as late Koto/early Shinto. School: I'm at a loss. Origami: N/A Other Information: Bought from Mr. Tony Smith in conjunction with another sword as a bundle deal at the 2021 Token Kai. III. Photos Although the ruler is extended from kissaki to past the nakago, because I had troubles holding the measuring tape in alignment with the sword. The number I recorded was a proper nagasa measurement (kissaki to munemachi and not measuring the nakago). The deepest curvature of the sori (same here on it being measured only by the nagasa despite the ruler extending past the nakago): Note the following two pictures in regards to discussion on the sayagaki below. It's the lower mekugiana that fits this shirasaya, and the fitting isn't perfectly snug: 2 mekugiana and suriage: Crude drawing of measurements of nakago: Iori mune: Hamon starts as o-notare with a mix of itame and mokume hada: But the hamon transitions to gunome midare near kissaki Ko-maru Sagari boshi Quite small Chu-Kissaki. Pencil for scale IV. School So, now we get the actual heart of the matter. What do I actually have here? Having measured it and looked through Nagayama's "Connoisseur's" for a time, I figured it'd be better to post here and open this for discussion. If this is a super easy one, please don't laugh. I'm doing my best to learn But what time period do people think I have, and what school? Here's my best guesses: School: Shinto Soshu school based off Nagayama's "Connoisseur's" page 231, but frankly, I'm absolutely guessing. Maybe Kashu (see below)? Time-period: Early Edo (1644-1687) because it's shinogi-zukuri, shallow sori, chu-kissaki, narrow sakihaba, and the although the standard nagasa length is listed about 70 cm and this sword is 61.4, it's suriage. V. Sayagaki Next, onto the sayagaki. I noted the couple photos above. From the outset, there's a couple issues. First, I couldn't find a Kachu smith by the name of Kanemune. If someone would look at page 145 of Markus Sesko's A-M Index for a Kachu Kanemune, you'd be a lifesaver. Right now, I can't justify spending another $90 on books, as I just bought a bunch of books (and these two swords); I'll probably get his e-book Index later this fall. That's strike one. Strike two is the fit of the shirasaya. You see from one of the photos above that the blade at the habaki is a little loose, perhaps a millimeter but still not perfect. Perhaps the greatest problem is the nagasa measurement. The sayagaki says it should be 66.5 cm. However, the sword itself is 61.4 cm. But, I did wonder if that has to do with it being suriage. In the shirasaya, it sits in the lower mekugiana, and that is 2.4 cm lower than the upper mekugiana. I'm not sure how much (if any) of the nagasa is lost when shortened (I know it's shortened from the nakago), but perhaps the blade was 66.5 cm and is now not long enough. Something in its favor however, is that it's got most of the wickets hit for a Kashu school sword (see Nagayama's "Connoisseur's" page 245-246). It has: the chu-kissaki and standard tapering mihaba, mokume-hada (I think), o-notare midare and o-gunome midare with wide hamon; Ko-maru boshi a kuri-jiri nakago katte sagari yasurime So, what do you think? Do I have a Kanemune sword that's mumei (either originally or as a result of suriage)? Or has someone attempted to bamboozle me with a nice sayagaki on my shirasaya? As I said, I negotiated the price and bought it thinking it was intriguing but likely not matching the sword given the dealer's hesitancy. VI. Conclusion I'm very proud of the work I did here and with my other kantei. These were the first Nihonto that I've held in my hands at home, and I used my resources and documented them well using the full Kantei sheet. That's not at all to say I think I did perfectly or even well; I'm positive I made multiple mistakes. But I'm proud that I didn't plop two pictures of the two swords on this forum and ask to be spoon-fed information. As for spending the money on these swords which may not be perfect, everyone has an opinion on how/if another person should spend their money on particular swords. For me, I spent half my budget, accomplished my listed goals, have incredible enjoyment out of these, and will care for them while they're in my ownership. Hats off to everyone else for their own opinions, but I'm pleased as punch with mine. Thank you for your time in reading, your guidance, and in commenting and adding to the discussion.

@Jussi Ekholm Very fun to look at! Thank you so much for digging through your books and then posting.

@Gakusee and @uwe thank you both so much! I really, really appreciate the generosity of your time. I'm finding kanji to be one of the least approachable aspects of this field. Just need more studying, obviously. As to the length, I'm hoping to do a full kantei today and will circle back here when I post that. As to the signature: 加州 - Kashū. The characters match Kaga Prefecture, and I know typically the place of the smith's province proceeds their name. Is that correct here? 兼宗 - Kanemune. Unfortunately, I'm not finding a Kanemune who hailed from Kaga province. Yumoto's book only lists one from Yamato province. Nihonto Club's site has a bunch of Kanemunes but again, none from Kaga (https://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/list?id_op=%3D&id=&name_op=starts&name=kanemune&kanji_op=%3D&kanji=&province=All&start_era=All&school_nid=All ). Finally, Nagayama doesn't have any info on Kanemune from Kaga. Interestingly, he does list Kanewaka (兼若), whose name is close but no cigar. Does anyone know of another Kanemune from Kashū/Kaga that I haven't found yet? 作 - saku. Does this just mean "made"? Contextually, when I google this, I never find the word alone. It just comes with the ratings: chu saku, chu-jo saku, jo saku etc. Like I said, the whole thing could be nonsense, but it is intriguing.

Thanks @Tom Darling! I’m not sure when the next show I’ll get to attend will be, but I’m positive it’ll happen some time. Our cat is pretty great We got him when we lived in Japan. He’s naughty and kind of dim sometimes, but we love him.

@Geraint, thank you for this! Of course, @Grey Doffin did sort me out incredibly quickly and for a very reasonable price, which seems to be his norm: excellence every time. I'm excited to read these essays!