Marc T

Hi Uwe, Yes please. Will be very happy to hear Comments from this great community. Uwe, could we discuss briefly on PM. m.tzanavaris@hotmail.fr Many thanks. cheers

Very interesting Uwe. Everything can be a lead, so who knows. Myself, I am using the following link to search for the clan .幕末維新新選組　諸藩家紋一覧 1 (bakusin.com) I believe it is a good site for the Bakumatsu period which munechika lived. It gives ( I believe ) a good list of clan. My assumption ( and a wild guestimate...) is that the retainer may have used the shape of the kamon of their lord as a clan symbol. They are 4 clans using this shape ( tateyama clan in Chiba ( 55pers), Yodo han in Kyoto( 400 pers) , Mori clan (226 pers) in Choshu, and Usuki han in Kyushu. All over the country.....Great. Over the years, I saw few of those maedate, with different pattern inside . I am guessing that it may come from a larger clan than the others ( Yodo han with 400 pers) could be a good candidate. The limit of this site, is actually it record the kamon of the lord in charge, but not the clan symbol itself. A concrete example of this, is if you remember a previous picture I sent on this thread, there is one flag of the tsuyama clan with the sign of the clan, and the kamon below of the retainer. If you look for Tsuyama clan in the bakumatsu site, it shows the kamon of the lord ( matsudaira) but there is no mention of the clan symbol. And if you google it, you can barely find the tsuyama clan symbol. Tough search Uwe...and I am prety sure one day someone will comes out of the blue, and say, " oh yes, I know this symbol, it is from the xx clan". Will see.

Thanks Uwe. Tough search. It won’t be easy. Thank you for your help. Regarding the 3 families you sent me (Itai, Yokota,Oshima ) just a thought, but it there any geographical link between them or they are spread all over Japan? May be a start. I couldn’t find any information on those families on internet.

Great set Uwe, I am interested in the shape of the last maedate I sent. The one with the “bell” inside. I have seen some of those maedate, sometime with the “~” {Ichi?} sign inside. This octagonal shape must belong to a Han. I try to find out which Han it could be. once,I will know the Han, I will dig into the family crest of my armors. if I am lucky, I might find into the Han register who owned the Kamon of my armors. A long way to go..... Many thanks Uwe.

Dear Uwe, Thank you for the search. Noted for the leather armor. Could be the reason why Munechika didn’t signed the leather one. Good learning. if you have time for the mandate, I would really appreciate if you could have a look at it. I asked many ,many people, but no one could give me an answer about the location of this Han. I have seen quite a lot of those mandate, so my guess is that it was quite an important one....But where? I keep the faith. Nice set you have here Uwe. I really like the Eboshi style. Now I understand about the flags. They are from the Tatsuno Han. They have record of the flags, armor of the retainer,and his name......What else....!, see pictures. This is what I prefer in collecting armors. It is to dig to find who owns it, which period, what was his rank,etc. I am always moved when I can find something. (Not too often I have to admit.....) During one of my search, I also found where one bakumatsu retainer of the Oka Han was living, and even his house..... Without more information, hard to say if it is a Kamon , or the armor of a retainer of the clan. I would vote for a retainer of the Tatsuno Han. Very nice.

And the last shots....

Hi Arthur, more for you. Cheers

Very nice Arthur...

Hello Arthur, I do not have the knowledge to explain you how it was originaly made, but the way I have done mine is with silver soldering. The good thing about Japan is that you can find almost all material you need. So I purchase in my favorite DIY shop a tube of brass at the right caliber, and add a drilled 2 or 3 mm piece of brass at one end. Insert the tube into the brass piece, and sold with silver low temperature. Not from outside, but the inside part of the junction between the brass piece and the brass tube. result is good, as you can only see from the top a very thin line of silver. Once polished, impossible to tell the difference. Then put this assembly into my drill, and with a fine file, shape the pin, the way and size I wanted. On the original pan cover, if you look carefully, you can tell what was the original size of the pin.( different color or some scratch). Hope it helps Arthur.

Dear Uwe, to complete my previous post. One more picture of a maidate I found somewhere. may be the same clan? Not sure.

Thank you Uwe for spending time on this. I agree with you, too complicated to track to a family. As you mentioned, so many Samourai used so many family crest, that unless there is a firm proof ( document), it is almost impossible to track a family crest. I am always amazed, when some antique dealers mention that this armor belong to this family just judging from the Kamon. For me at this stage, I believe it is a bit early to discuss about a particular family. The reason why, I am looking for the clan first, it's because it narrow drasticly the search. (When we will talk about flags, I will tell you an interesting story on how I found a retainer). Once I get the clan, I contact the local museum, and sometimes, they have the "Clan record". The beauty of those data, it that they recorded the name of the retainers, their family line, how much koku they made, which part of the city they lived, shape of their yari, etc. .......and their family crest...!! If I have the clan, and the family crest, and the record from the clan, the next step is pure luck.....but sometimes, luck is on my side.... When the clan data do not exist, I was recommend to go to the surrondings temples. Temples used to record also all birth, etc. They were acting as a registration government office. I never had to go that far, but will keep this in mind for future search. Another important thing, is how far local museum are willing to cooperate, and this is another story. To get back on the maedate, I think the clan symbol is just the octogonal shape. That why on the B armor, it only shows this. On C Armor ( close up picture I sent), the kamon is inside the Clan symbol, and not a family crest as a whole. May be. It is like the takatsuki triangle design, when high ranking samourai where allowed to put their family crest within the triangle shape of the clan. That is speculation, but could be one option. Cheers

Sorry Arthur, seems that I cannot send more pictures... I exceed what I can send apparently..😩will try again tomorrow. That’s all for now. cheers

More again for the Bizen, it was very very hard to open, and my friend gunsmith took a lot of time to open it. Originally it was in its right position (you can with the color difference on the barrel. it was so tight, that ever air and rust could get to it. after opening it, you can see the maximum I can close it. Far from the desired position. What I am doing is the stop 1/4 before to match the stock. the Bizen is very tight, and almost no room between the Bizen and the barrel. I believe it was only used a few times, and because the Bizen rusted, not used for a long long time....... Considering it’s very good condition and strength I will use it for shooting. PS: note the matching number on the Bizen and barrel

More pictures.

Hello Arthur, Please, find attached some pictures. Let me know if this is what you are looking for. Hope it helps.

Thank you Uwe, Very nice. Regarding the last armor (E), fully understand that Munechika used different "option " , but for the mei and date, the do always match the kabuto . First time I see the kabuto with one patern, and the do with another. I was just wondering if there is any specific reason to this. Do you have record of other armor makers doing the same thing? I have all my Munechika files in my hometown, but If my memory is correct this set was on sale in 1998 at Kinokuniya. It was a poor black & white quality picture, and cannot remember clearly, but I think the Maedate was the same. Not sure. If it was on sold, do you know who sold it and to whom. I would be interested to get more pictures of it. If someone from this great community recognize this armor, I would love to get in touch..... Flags, and Maedate are nice bonuses.....Hope they will stay with this original armor. We see too many case, where people sell only the maedate or the flags. It is great Uwe that you keep record of those armors in their original condition. To your Munechika's database, I am adding few more pictures of munechika armors. I would like to attract your attention to the 3 tatami gusoku. They have an interesting story. From left to right, we will call them A,B and C. A is signed Myochin ki Munechika date 1848 ( iron), B is signed Myochin ki munechika date 1858 ( iron), C is not signed ( leather) Till now, easy to understand, but now sit tight..... A has the same Hanpo as C, B has an Hanpo similar to the armor on the other picture. A has the same do, haidate as B and C. A has the same kote and sode as C. Means that B has a different set. At the begining I was a bit suspicious about those sode being original to this armor, but B and C share the same silk fabric, means they were probably made at the same period..... B and C have the same kabuto. Some genius separate the kabuto from the rest of the armor, but judging from the kabuto of its brothers B&C, I have a pretty good idea what it may look like. B and C have the same shape of Maedate. Those Maedate are original to their armor ( I was lucky).This maedate is from their clan symbol. I have looked around, and cannot find which clan it is. If anyone knows about this clan, I am really interested to know. One more hint. The kuginuki is the base for the 2 family crest. Those 3 armors are like the rosette's stone. If something is missing on one, the 2 others have it and vice versa. Still there? A, B, C all share the same back plate system to hold the do straight, and when I say they are similar, it means that all the parts were made at the exact same scale. Obviously from the same workshop. Munechika had a workshop, and here the proof of his armor "mass production". Uwe, is there any record of leather armor signed . I have seen leather armors signed in red lacquer ( genuine or not? Hard to tell with writing) but I am thinking of 2 or 3 leather armors that you know were made and signed by an armorer?. If you are still there, thank you for your help on my questions. Kind regards PS : The flags on the back are not related to those armors. Except for the one with the Tsuyama clan, related to the armor on the right with the same maedate.

Dear Uwe, If the first day is like this, cannot wait for the second day.....!! Thank you SO MUCH. Now , as you could expect, few questions. A) Kabuto alone with the "上”family crest. I believe I have seen a picture of it few years ago on the net. If my memory is correct, it has a probably 10cm round maedate with the same family crest. Is this ( probably original to the helmet) maedate still part of this helmet? Is this helmet in a private collection?. B) Mempo and do Very nice. C) Kabuto with a sign on the shikoro. Not sure the helmet itself was made by Munechika. But judging from your picture, it seems that there is a window in the Ukebari. Do you have information to confirm that the helmet is also signed by Munechika? D) unfortunately the fabric ( silk ) is in poor condition. It is not unusual for Munechika's armor. Don't know why. I have noticed that on lots of his armor. For the price he was selling his armor, he could have made an effort on his suppliers.... E) The last gusoku, is very interesting. The whole gusoku reflect his work no doubt. We are lucky he also put the date of his work, and they both match. What doesn't match is the mei sign. The one on the do use the kanji saku, which ( for now) was in line with the rest of his armor sets. But the helmet as a kanji "kao" at the end. The kabuto is a genuine Munechika, the kanji are good, and in line with the others mei we know of Munechika. It is obviously a complete set of armor. No clue why he would use a different kanji. Any idea on this? All the other complete set of Munechika armor I know have both the same sign and date. Is this set in a private collection or in a museum? Thank you so much for send the pictures Uwe. Cannot wait for tomorrow........!!

Hello Arthur, I am not an expert on Hinawaju, but the screw seems a bit weird. Is this original?. Sometimes people glue it, but with a screw, never seen that. But again, I am not an expert, and if real this must be very unique. Is this only on Kishu guns? Very interesting.

Hello Uwe, Yes please, if you can , send me what you have. Very interesting. Many thanks

Hello Arthur, No problem. Happy to help. Please wait for the week end. I will have more time to take pictures and measurements.

Whaou...!! I Would have never found this one....!! Very impressive Piers. With or without the gun, this is going to be nice anyway. But you are right. Will check before. Many thanks for your help on my questions.

Ahahaha. No . Only spoted this one. Where is the other one? As for the Kamon, it is Maruni katabami. As for the characters, I have seen them ( or similar) on armor do or Jingasa, but have no idea what they mean neither. If there is a gun from the same gunsmith in Nagahama castle, that will be my next trip destination...... Thank you again Tier, very impressive knowledge about the Hinawaju.

Hello everyone, You are right. It is a mistake on the registration card. Niju is enough.......Probably the guy from Mie prefecture though it was cool to put the same kanji....!! What about the 2 inlays on the barrels. Any specific meaning?

Hi Piers, Thank you for your answer. Sure, happy to share all the pictures your friend will need for his project. if he contacts me, I can send him pictures and measurements if he needs them. The mechanism is in mint condition and working perfectly.the Bizen was very tight, and it took a lot of efforts to remove it for my gunsmith friend. I will test fire it on a shooting range this week end. Will see how it goes. Problem is I don’t have the correct size of bullet mold for it. A bit too small or too big....I believe it is 10.05-10.07. now, the 2nd gun. Much better pictures with daylight.... Kunitomo,but no idea about the period and gunsmiths The mechanism also working very well. Needed some slight adjustments, but all parts were in excellent condition. Decoration are in silver. Thank you again for your help Piers.