Kawa

It is not about it being a Katana, better to buy a good quality Wakizashi or Tanto in this case which has a good Ji and is a confirmed Muromachi Uda

Only to a bad sale, I am sorry you feel I am not complying with bad items for sale but there is a risk that someone who would become a valued member of the collecting community will be hurt by bad practices and I think that it is worth protecting them if possible

How are Muromachi mumei "rare" The muromachi was a great period for the Uda school and plenty of signed examples are available and I stated that their Muromachi tanto are far better to collect if one requires a Muromachi Uda

This is not elitist, it is simply good advice and my opinion. With regards to items that would be more collectible in the same price points it simply requires a bit of online searching and there are way too many options. Expressing a Mumei Uda as a rarity is false and should not be allowed. Obviously you should consider a proper frame of validating sales posts before they go up instead of criticizing my advice and jumping on the band wagon calling it elitist. I am not saying do not buy this and instead buy this Juyo. I am just saying do not but mumei swords from certain time period, why is that elitist?

I think it's Romulan

In order to reinforce your post, may we know what your collection consists of and why you chose said swords? (At your discretion, if i have overstepped then i understand. )

He doesn't usually do that 

Georg, firstly, please do not sell the sword yet. Part of the fun in spending very little for a lottery is winning big later. You already did this with your Masayuki 😃

Second, on the hamon, looking at this hamon it seems to clearly end right on the hamachi, if the sword was osuriage then i would not expect that in most cases. I would be interested to hear opinions now that we can see masame, sugu - midare hamon and this sugata, what the consensus is on school? If older i would lean to Naminohira or direct Yamato, but, if shinto onwards, any other opinions?

Swords are not simply seen as weapons in Japanese culture, indeed even in Western culture, swords are more than "slabs of steel". To infer otherwise shows true ignorance, just my opinion of course. 

14 hours ago, Wayben said:

I should have quoted post #41.  My point is we never really know, signed or mumei, ubu or suriage, it is all an opinion, each as valid as the next when they come from NBTHK or NTHK.   Whether it's signed or not, or ubu or not, shouldn't invalidate the opinion, and we never really know as asked in #41.

I'm not sure this is valid. There are historical records of signatures in publications and existing examples that are used to determine if a signature is true or not. 

The swords steel is in bad shape on this one. A polish would probably cause more harm that good here I feel, I am not sure what others think? 

Shape wise it does shout Kanbun. But, to be honest we would need accurate measurements to make a solid call, i have a long shinto blade that is very similar from Takada Muneyuki that has a similar profile but the hamon is different, we need to see all the features before making a decision. I would also point to an Awataguchi that i have that are also very shallow on sori but the nakago sori points to Kamakura. 

Basically, more details please

The nakago rust is a conundrum as well, that red rust is going to destroy the patina and we cannot see any yasurime features because of it 

Georg

This could be an interesting one but could we get more pictures? The mune, closer on the kissaki, jigane? 

Maybe some measurements on sori, kasane, motohaba, sakihaba, as much as you can basically?

Older tachi that were shortened can be relatively low on sori but a closer inspection is required. The problem is that swords of this length and sori came about in the shinto (few) and shinshinto aswell. 

Is there a possibility of better shots on the nakago? 

Ah yes! Very clear now, apologies for the long winded Kaku-mune post before

That is some awesome research as always, thanks Jussi! 

Ah alas, the optical illusion, sorry for the mistake guys

This is an interesting one, the sword is Kaku-mune, this type of mune is rigid and found on very old swords, older than 600 years, more like Heian period. At first i thought Muromachi but the sword has a raised shinogi, slender in shape and tapers too much toward and extended kissaki for that. The kaku mune is also very important. Seeing as the rust is uniform perhaps the sword has not been reshaped or badly altered with a grinder as many have been in the past. You might (hard to say without a clean polish) even have an old old gem here or something trying to be if it was re-profiled at some point in its life. Good luck with this one and i hope it is a heian piece!

About the habaki...not sure at all, never seen that

Any chance of more pictures of the mune, especially under the habaki leading up to the kissaki? Sorry for all the asks

Hi Ken, I understand that I am asking a lot by wanting collectors to be open to holding out on bad purchases and save for better items but the learning curve should be shortened by education. I think a fundamental part of education should be looking at the mistakes of the past and implementing them so we can avoid a few pitfalls. History is the best teacher I think. 

6 hours ago, mywei said:

I think there is a market for all kinds of swords whether it be zaimei, mumei or suriage. It depends what the collector's aim is what they are looking for. Each has its own merits and place in the world of nihonto collecting.

 

If you just wanted a good representation of a Kanemoto for example and didn't put much emphasis on the mei you could get a papered mumei kanemoto for half the price or less. But if the emphasis is on not only quality of blade but also zaimei then that is ok too as long as the collector is willing or able to pay the exponentially higher cost.

I think the non-emphasis on Mei for a sword smith that has Zai examples available and hoping it is a good example cannot exist in the same logic, bear with me, if we are talking about Kamakura then I agree this can be difficult but Mid to late Muromachi is something we have a lot of so why not be sure of what you are holding is indeed Kanemoto? So why study a smiths work and activity without being sure it is that smith, at best you are looking at School or tradition of, than that smith. A named attribution to mumei Kanemoto is the NBTHK saying "the work is good for Mino, as good as Kanemoto" they are not saying Kanemoto. A Hozon papered Zai sword to Kanemoto means it is not Gimei, a Juyo Papered Kanemoto is saying it is in the top percent of Kanemotos work. So if you purchased a signed Kanemoto there are still vast levels of attribution as to the condition of that signed work that will also determine a price bracket. You could even buy a Hozon papered Kanemoto that is priced at a Juyo price because the quality is outstanding and the seller knows it, the only way the buyer knows the same logic is if they have studied Zai examples of the best quality of the smith to make the same conclusion.

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

 

There are experts for that. 

There are also existing signed, ubu, nidai Magoroku Kanemoto. Why not own / strive to own, one of those? 

Looks like an ubu, mumei, shinto piece. I agree with Ray, it seems tired

1 hour ago, Valric said:

This sort of conversation cannot work without specifying which bracket the advice applies to. One who is fishing on Ebay for nice waks cheaply priced cannot possibly benefit from the same advice as someone hunting in the treacherous mid-range. There is something for everyone in this hobby, and I think its important to qualify where the advice applies otherwise the message is inevitably elitist. Someone can do well in the Ebay hunt, and more power to that person. 

This advice is not for those looking for a good deal, or money. This is about quality....Please Valric, you know what I am saying, and I know what you are saying.

19 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

I won't dive in this topic, but frankly i prefer to own a mumei suriage nidai Magoroku Kanemoto which shows real artistic features than a Kamakura signed sword  but made by an obscure or average swordwmith

But how do you know it really is Nidai Magoroku Kanemoto?

1 minute ago, Alex A said:

 

Aye, probably for best

 

Just for the record, Ray not so long ago referred to another member as a c---, but nothing got said

 

would you prefer I simply left Alex, i see you are upset? Perhaps if you need to have a go at me, start a new thread? Please don't hijack this one

I saw those vids by TW, amazing. I doubt we could get permission to translate them though? 

22 minutes ago, Oshy said:

 

I agree relationships, especially with such knowledgeable and trustworthy dealers such as Ray are absolutely priceless, its a small world we live in, reputation matters.

I was just using my Ko-Uda above as an example but, as you point out, I fully understand its far from say a top quality 80+cm ubu with Norishige mei in perfect condition. In full transparency, and this gets to what Brian brought up, I am 31 and raising a family so my wallet and ability to collect is constrained behind many other priorities that take precedence. When it comes to quality/quantity and buying the best you can afford, I have set my collection to a limit of 5 or 6 blades with a limit on how much I want my total investment to be. The Ko-Uda above was $6k, a great deal in my opinion for what it is, and unless I decide to liquidate most of the collection in exchange for 1 blade some day, I will likely never own a juyo but thats ok, solid TH quality pieces is where I shall happily reside.

Ubu, Zaimei Norishige (Norishige has flaws as a natural occurrence due to the forging technique, but another discussion, they are acceptable to a point), perfect condition and Juyo is now in the 100's of thousands mark. Rightfully so, that would be so special to see,but, I do not think any exist that are Ubu (Katana or Tachi).