Curran

Here is an image of mine, which has NBTHK Hozon papers. As the doctor commented, this topic has come up before. I'd forgotten the previous thread he mentioned. What bothered me about that thread was that people posted examples, but it was my feeling that many of them would not be considered legit at shinsa. Hirotoshi had quite a number of students and I sometimes wonder if the 'gimei' so often seen were works signed by students. Sometimes the designs are often very good and in keeping with the school. I've seen one of identical design to mine. The workmanship wasn't quite the same, but it was very decent and the signature relatively close. It made me think awful lot of work for what we call 'Gimei', but then Asian artist have often been capable of what some call "super fakes". In the Baur Collection book there is a good genealogy of this school. Curran

Yes- I do not follow these boards actively at present, but saw your message. I have a tsuba w/ Hozon papers to him. Remind me to post it later today after work. FYI- You will see examples in a variety of books, but he was a popular target for gimei. Many in the older books (museum collections and such) are considered gimei in comparison to Wakayama signatures. Some of them are good work, but maybe signed by his students? Curran

I think I've been aware of George's website for the better part of a decade. Either Jim Kurrash or one of the early webbers had a link to it. The site did not change for a very very long time. Because of my longstanding interest in Archery, I would visit it from time to time. I do not know if I ever corresponded with him. I believe he is in the UK, but that is distant memory whispering. The site declares itself non-commercial and I've never seen anything commercial on it. I lost my main computer in July and with it went many of my old Nihonto links. George's is one I forgot to refind. It seems he has dramatically updated and expanded since I last recall visiting. In expanding, it looks like he has stepped on a few copyright toes. I believe one of the fuchi (the sword smith one) belongs to an American collector. _________________________________________________________________________________ Thats all I know about that. (forrest gumpism)

Peter, I second Brian's motion. If you can put it into words, share a bit of what you are looking for on Nobuiye tsuba. Small confession: I like your Waterplant Nobuiye very much. Back when there was debate whether or not it would paper, I thought about making you an aggressive offer on it. I felt it was the first time I'd seen an unpapered one that I was at least +65% sure was legit (My confidence interval on the famous Nobuiye is not very high, so please teach what you can. I'm much better at recognizing Akasaka, Echizen, Myochin Nobuiye). For reasons of NBTHK politics and current state of Hozon shinsa, I wasn't sure the Japanese would paper your Waterplant Nobuiye. I am very glad it did. Beautiful piece. One you must seen in person to appreciate why Nobuiye is praised. Austin: I hope your find can be restored to proper condition like Peter's and that it passes NBTHK shinsa. Quite the story you have on it. Thanks for sharing. Curran

Wow. Nice fine Austin and good research by Peter. Yes, Peter is definitely the man when it comes to research and also to Nobuiye. I don't own Mosle- just one of the gaps in my library. I didn't even think to look in Torigoye. I didn't think the signature looked that good, but I liked the design and the workmanship nice if you could look past the current conditionto what it should look like restored a bit. I thought it more likely to be a side Nobuiye or a very nice plate someone had stuck a Nobuiye signature. I hope it can be carefully restored to better condition. Given the Torigoye link, this one probably should go to NBTHK shinsa sooner or later. It isn't a guarantee by any stretch, but certainly ups the probability in my eyes. Again though, I'd default to Peter as "The Brain" on this one. Curran

Hi. Pine needles and grain bales. Autumn theme I would guess. Looks like a nice tsuba. The shakudo plug is a bit on the funky side. Wonder if it were intended as a repair, as it seems off designwise without explanation. The famous Nobuiye were often gimei (false signature). At first glance your signature doesn't look very likely to be one of them. There were quite a handful of 'other' very legit Nobuiye of varying skill known often by their place of work name, such as Akasaka Nobuiye, Echizen Nobuiye, Kaga Nobuiye, Myochin Nobuiye, etc.. Their signatures are relatively documented. If you can get two or 3 very good images of the signature, I could give it a try to see if you have a match there. Be patient with me though, as work has been chaotic the last 2 weeks and doesn't look like it will stabalize soon. Curran

Dear John, It is my feeling the NBTHK has gotten inundated with shinsa items the past few years and gotten sloppy on the Hozon level. I've seen too many unsigned tsuba with papers to "Higo" (just Higo), "Shoami", or "Kyo-Kinko" when there is much more to them. If they go to Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa, the better ones get a more specific attribution- sometimes barely in the same ballpark as the Hozon papers. When it goes from "Shoami" as Hozon to "Kanayama" as Toku Hozon at a second shinsa... c'mon? A shinas judge said to me that, "(you) must ask yourself how much classification some tsuba deserve." Even just accepting the broader implications of that statement as fact, can we not infer it encourages a sort of shinsa overly quick triage survery which might miss the finer details to be seen in some tsuba when there are so many at a shinsa? While I can understand the logic of experts asking to be paid for the $500 Tokubetsu Hozon answer on top of the $175 answer for Hozon, I myself will say many tsuba don't warrant such expense. Between this and the shinsa judge opinion of Hozon, I think that we sometimes see a modern cheapening out of Hozon papers as a "lighter opinion". Again, let me stress this is my feeling on the matter. I'd like to attribute this kantei tsuba as something more than Kyo-Kinko, but if it has only Hozon papers from some time in the past few years, then I'm currently of the opinion the papers will say "Kyo-Kinko". ____________________________________________________ This feeling is directed primarily at the NBTHK, but then there are calls like Milt's tsuba where I respect the Yoshikawa NTHK fittings judges and wish they would explain why they gave his to "Kyo-kinko". I still think that one is something else. Maybe you (Milt) should post that one in a seperate thread.

Late Edo, fine nanako, insect theme, unsigned work.... often points towards Yoshioka very quickly. I've tried to upload an example of NBTHK Yoshioka tsuba that I owned a while back. As Guido said, I often go to a conclusion from the "gut", letting experience take me to conclusion quickly. Then sort of backtest it and see if it works. In this case I retracted my Yoshioka comment after a very short period of mental backtesting. I'd need agree with Guido that I don't think it is Goto. I'm not sure it is Yoshioka, because they tend to do their insects in gold and yet I don't think of their carving as crisp as this. However, the eyes of the insects are a bit simplistic. For whatever reason, I believe the Yoshioka could render eyes a bit better than this. I have and still own a beautiful late Edo tsuba with Shi-shi, fine nanako, and beautiful rose gold flowers. It is of similar shape to this one, though larger. Absolutely beautiful work that had several small things about it keeping it from falling into any one major school. People were quick to say Goto, but the NBTHK gave it to Kyo-Kinko- which was a major "cop-out" answer. I am hoping that this tsuba hasn't suffered the similar Kyo-kinko grabbag attribution. One thing of note, the Ichiryu Tomoyoshi (or is it Tomotoshi.. mental block here) could leave their ironwork and sometimes do beautiful nanako tsuba like this with fine small carving, but they were always signed and I haven't run across an insect one yet.

Brian, Hope you are feeling better. I believe I read in another thread that you were near pneumonia. As noted, I was bidding on a second generation NBTHK papered version of this tsuba last week only to have it yanked by the seller. That another should pop up so quickly with such a low Buy It Now was ~interesting~. Recognizing the formatting of the book and having just looked at it last week, I got the book off the shelf. It took me a second or two and then I had to double check the web listing to realize the photo had been doctored. Someone has bid on the tsuba, if it isn't the seller shilling his own auction. Anyone want to go after this puppy (bid on it), be my guest. If cheap enough, it might be a good buy. I'll stick to just watching this one and remember to be careful with this seller. Curran

Wow. Very nice. Yoshioka? No, maybe I should retract that answer and think on the nanako a bit. I'm not sure what other clues to to consider. Any clues on the actual insects themselves. The photos are good. Curran

That is exactly what I mean... They took a photo of the tsuba they are selling and overlaided or photoshopped it over the picture of the Sukashi Tsuba book. The page is identical, but the image of the tsuba is NOT! The image of the book is a partially falsified image. The designs are the same, but the one in the book is slightly thinner and more elegant. For starters: (1) The one in the actual book has no small sukashi opening under the kogai ana. (2) The sekigane are different. (3) The seppa dai on the one in the auction has a little node on it that doesn't exist in the photo in the actual book. I think I am just amazed at the effort the guy went to in order to sell the tsuba. That Buy It Now price is darn low for a Hayashi. This one is a bear trap he might be hoping someone steps in. Yahoo!Japan has gotten much worse in the past year or so. Many more crude gimei being dumped there now, with Posservice often buying them up and dumping them on USA eBay. Other sellers shill their own auctions and the one seller that I respected a bit pulled his most recent auction shortly before the finish when it wasn't getting enough bids. I was high bidder at the time and it had NBTHK Hozon papers. The seller of the doctored photo tsuba (sw_libro) doesn't even rank in the pantheon of bad sellers. I'm glad to see that this tsuba hasn't got any bids yet. Hasn't fooled anyone? At 20,000 I'd almost take it out of perverse curiosity to have the design for a bit. Worst case it is a paperweight for my desk.... but still shocked at what lengths he has gone to spin this auction. If anyone else has the Sukashi Tsuba book, crack it open to page 114 and take a comparison. The fonting and layout is very distinct. It is suppose to be the Sukashi Tsuba book. Curran

Moderators and others please jump in and correct me on this one- I'd like to be wrong. http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b89504990 Looks nice, and the book photographed is suppose to be the Sukashi Tsuba book. If you own the book and flip it open to page 114 you see why yes-- it is the same tsuba. OR IS IT? Dah dah dum.... The tsuba is not the same as on page 114 of the Sukashi Tsuba book. Sure, design is the same as the actual tsuba from the book, but the tsuba for sale has been photoshopped or otherwise superimposed on an image of page 114 of the book and added to the auction. Perhaps it is naivete, but I am surprised to what level the seller (and he or she is often a seller) has stooped. It must be intentional. It isn't the same tsuba in the book, though the page is otherwise identical. My understanding of Japanese is improving, but still limited. Does the seller say anything to explain this in his auction? I read something about a crack, but am unsure to what or where he is actually referring.

Mr. Trotter, Welcome to the forum. Thank you for the contributions you have made. I think I still technically represent one of the 'young ones'. It is a good community here. We look forward to future posts and think it might be nice to hear a bit more about WWII era gendai. All in time. Curran

Dear Piers, I do not understand. I am 99% sure it is authentic, though I wonder why the shakudo fukurin. What am I missing? I am still learning Japanese and have ways to go. Does the auction actually say "No claims. No Returns."? Yahoo!Japan can be dangerous, but I thought this might be a safe one for Ken.

Ken (Mantis Dude), My email is glitching this morning, so I'm going to post this here. It has one day on it, and figured it might interest you: http://page18.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w28955093 Still fairly priced, though agent fees for Japanese auctions can run about +20% now. Nearly as painful as an auction house. Its been a while since I purchased anything from the auctions, though still fun to look.

Waynes, I can understand the attribution, as Kaga, Echizen and Owari work all spun off out of the Mino school in late Muromachi to the "Shinto" sword period. Darcy or someone else can correct me in that I usually associate IyeTsugu with 1570 to 1700 work. I think the Iyetsugu name is mostly associated with Shinto. I thought this sword was earlier than that. I can understand the attribution as a good one, but I felt it was more mainstream muromachi Mino. As stated before, I am more of a fittings collector these days- so take my word lightly. The workperiod of IyeTsugu line may be earlier than I remember and yours on the early side of that timeline. Look up "Kaga" in the Connosseuirs Guide under the Shinto section. They probably mention the IyeTsugu name. Also Kaga (Kashu) was big enough that there is a Kaga Taikan (big book of Kaga) and also a Kaga Shinto Shu (Shinto swords of Kaga). Someone on the list might own a copy and be able to provide info. Curran Ps. Do not confuse Kaga IyeTsugu (aka IeTsugu) with Bizen IyeTsugu (Ietsugu). Bizen Iyetsugu looks/is very different.

From memory: Kashu Iyetsugu (or Ietsugu in some texts) is a longish line of at least 4 but probably 6 or 7 smiths working in from late muromachi forward into shinto and maybe shin-shinto period. Original influence is Mino. Usually the nakago has a distinct Kaga shape (Kashu = Kaga). I think I sold all my Kaga swords books. Just the fittings Kaga Kinko Taikan left, so I cannot pull up any oshigata.

Peter, as far as I know you own at least 2 Nobuiye... if not more. I think I like your most recent one the best, though the sukashi one is striking. Okay, okay.... I get the deal with original Kaneiye. Can someone loan me one to study? This is half in jest, but I do envy Rich his chance to study both in hand at the same time. Back to Doc John's question: comment on this tsuba.... What is it? A late Edo copy of a Kaneiye by perhaps a Aizu Shoami artisan or the likes? Doesn't quite seem Saga Kaneiye, and it isn't signed at all. Any further comment gents (und Dames)? Curran Ps. Milt, put Onions next to it and my dad would like one order... Actually, I think I know from memory the tsuba you are referencing. I believe that is more Saga Kaneiye. More interesting than most I have seen. Someone please loan me a Kaneiye! (repeat, this is a joke... but real Kaneiye are most welcome.)

Just shooting from the hip here: Any reason we aren't jumping to Saga Kaneie here? Kaneiye is a true weakpoint in my knowledgebase, but I expect better iron out of him and much of this tsuba says later Edo to me. Maybe I have it backwards, but the mountains being rounded vs. more pointed is something that points away from Saga Kaneiye. The punt is better defined than I would expect in Saga Kaneiye, but the low relief doesn't argue for anyone else. It might also be a product of one of the Shoami schools. John, if you have insight into the tsuba- then maybe wait for a few more responses, then share with us what you know. I cannot divine much special on this tsuba, as Kaneiye has rarely got my attention. One knowledgable dealer did say to me once that the true Kaneiye feel exponentially different in person. I don't think I've ever had the chance to sit down with one and study it.

Between the basket weave pattern in iron, the mokku shape, and the seppa dai, kozuka and kogai anas (holes), a good guess would be that it is late Edo a Bushu-Ito school tsuba. Either query Bushu-Ito on the internet, or read up in Harry Watson's english translations of the of Nihon To Koza (Kodogu volume). Curran

Rickisan, Q1: Answer... yes. Q2: Depends on the polisher, horimono, and sort of rust vs. patina. I'd say a good one wouldn't clean patina out of a bonji horimono, but then I've seen all sorts of things. Personally, I like it when a horimono has developed a deep color like the nakago without any active rust. On koto swords where the polish is really beautiful yet the horimono shows darkish patina along the lines of a well cared for nakago- I find it very beautiful. But all it takes is one nit-wit to offer to clean your sword for you. They rub uchiko into the groves and trying to wipe it out, potentially scratching the polish from the ridge of the horimono outward. If you have a sword with extra nice horimono, clean it yourself. Even some of the most experienced "old hands" can be destructive when it comes to uchikoing swords with horimono.

Ford has posted a very complete answer on this one. I learned a bit of new info from his post. Thank you F.H.. The short answer is that it is late Edo or Meiji and though condition is good and it is shiny-sparkly, it is not exactly a great piece of work. $399 seems very high to my frugal nature, and your contact with him makes the seller sound a bit of a crazy. My opinion: For $700 to $800 you can get some very good tsuba of leagues better workmanship and artistic merit.

I would not have guessed this as Kagehide work. Kagehide work while quiet and a bit lacking in distinction, is still a pretty and tight piece of workmanship. Either this Aoi Arts blade is tired, crudely polished, or otherwise not right. While I would associate the jigane with Oei Bizen line of work, I would have thought it Bizen from early Nambokchu and possibley by a lesser 2nd or arguably 3rd tier smith. Fred has a nice Kagehide up: http://www.nihonto.com/kagehide.html While Kagehide is sort of second tier Bizen smith, I find it very calm and skillfull. The one on Aoi Arts is a mess. I think this is a Juyo paper for the signature. Not the cleanest example for kantei. Curran

Photos anyone? Wish work didn't have me pinned here. It has been a while since I've been to the San Fran show, and yes... certainly the USA shows are the best place to find and buy good fittings at the best prices. Curran

I think we are all thinking along the same time period, but is the jigane not a little weak for Kunihiro? I haven't even hit the books yet to look up typical hada.