Curran

@Gakusee    I know.

The thread is posted in Tosogu, and @paul tsubadotinfo was highlighting the Tosogu shinsa.

The time and expense of tosogu papers vs what the items sale for has become too great a %.

Make the stenosis of # able to submit smaller, and the folly of it grows.

Add to it how random some of the results can be, and it is just a bit of pissing into the wind.

56 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Hopefully NTHK / NTHK-NPO, JASMK etc. organizations would get more recognition by the community and could perhaps try to up their game a bit in the appraisal field. It is not a good thing if pretty much only certificates by 1 organization are held in value. For monetary value the NBTHK appraisal can carry huge difference, for example depending what attribution the mumei sword gets...

Like many things these days, there is a bit of Shrink-flation at the NBTHK.

Ideally, limiting the number means a bit return to more knowledgeable response of shinsa of years past.

Realistically, it is just another hurdle.

My opinion of NBTHK papers has slid the past decade. Now I check the dates of the papers and handicap the opinion.

True story:  

  [1]   a very good condition iron tsuba that I thought was nidai Kanshiro. Off to NBTHK shinsa and the results are "Higo".   Well, that is useless. As a friend said, "Use if to line a bird cage or the bottom of a cat box?"

  [2]  I sold the tsuba. New owner put it through NTHK-NPO shinsa.  They bounced it as "modern". Buyer asked me what I wanted to do? I said. "oh, I forgot it had NBTHK Hozon papers. You want them or want to return the tsuba?"

  [3]  He kept the tsuba and papers. Amidst a divorce, he sold the tsuba. It pops up in Japan with a dealer, with more recent papers NBTHK papers to Kanshiro.

  [4]  An authority shows it to me and says "shodai Kanshiro"

So, what do I make of all that?

Paper game, even more fiat than most currencies nowadays.

Do I still paper?  Kinda, sorta?  Is it worth it?   No, not really.  I get a lot of Horyu on anything big names I send in to the NBTHK. I then have to wait 6 months more and resubmit. So far about a 100% success rate on the second try, but it is a lot of hassle and agent expense to have to submit twice for what should be relatively easy match workmanship and signature to books.

On 3/30/2024 at 10:30 AM, Franco D said:

 

Real solid gold menuki were a luxury item. These are basically copies of early solid gold Goto menuki. Which were not made like this (as you describe, very thin). Keep in mind that a thin pair like this under ito wrap would look to most like real solid gold menuki, but without coming at the price of a Rolex.

 

Regards

Nice explanation. -Pretty darn good copies, when under a wrap.

Yes, seeing the backs will help.

Good enough copies to get some of the things like the tri-marks at the armpits correct. Tri-clovers and spots on the body too.

The ridge on the chest is a good imitation of the markings on the originals. The paws are not finished in enough detail, but still a nice effort.

Close enough to the originals that Kyo Kinko would be likely how they paper. If they weren't so thin, they might get a waki-Goto call on a good day.

On 3/24/2024 at 2:15 PM, gun addict said:

Yes it does Bruce, both has nihonto inside. The top one is the Gassen blade with paper, I’ve taken many pictures unfortunately they’re all too large size for posting so I will try again shortly 

Great little package there.

That it has an older Gassan blade in it really gives a bit of the gravitas of someone carrying it into wartime.

Legit tsuba.

From the picture of inside the sukashi, I'd guess it to be repatinated.

Probably it had condition issues that were cleaned up, and then repatinated.

Take this as the devil's word, but many tsuba are repatinated. Some are incredibly well done. Others are a bit more "dipped".

Believe it or not, many repatinated tsuba get NBTHK papers.

Guido S. would insist it was only to Hozon in the past and No Longer Done according to his NBTHK sources, but I then watched tsuba I know to have been repatinated go on to get Hozon despite Guido's opinion.

Repatinations at Tokubetsu Hozon or Juyo?  

Mmmm. Some exist. I had one with TH papers that I learned was repatinated. I also know of at least two Juyo that were repaired and repatinated. I had the pleasure of seeing the before, after, and after Juyo pics.

I'm sorry that Guido isn't around to disagree with me.

+1.

I'd like a copy of this book too.

4 hours ago, Geraint said:

Dear Jean.

 

Forgive me, are you referencing Tochibata tsuba?  https://www.Japanese...ibata-sukashi-tsuba/

 

All the best.

Bingo.

I can see both a Tochibata call and a Sado Island call.

The iron definitely makes me think of the Sado Island tsuba.

2 hours ago, Jorgensen said:

@Spartancrest Thank you. I also have found several examples, including these below... Very interesting that the one from Bushido Japan is classified as Tosa Myochin... I have searched both books and seen the others on links you wrote, but not this one... I am quite stuck on this one to narrow it down further and this is the reason that I reach out here to see if one of our many knowledgeable migt be able to come up with more information...

 

 

 

 

 

The Akasaka borrowed from Higo. The Higo sometimes borrowed from the Akasaka. Later, the Tosa Myochin would often borrow from both of them and mishmash up a bit.

Most of the ones you see with sukashi into the nakago ana are going to be Nishigaki, but there are some Akasaka and Tosa Myochin (and some early Hayashi, but those tend to be a very different beast).

There were really a LOT of smiths in the Akasaka school, especially later on.

Yours is probably a later Nishigaki later generation.

That is my best guess, going off the internal spatial ratios of its design.

A burned or chemically torched Nagoya-mono tsuba.

Hi Jimi-san,

Do you have a specific question?

The tsuba is very Nishigaki in style, but very thin and possibly abused.

The added gold feels late and clumsy.

Price Cut to $375

    -Akasaka or Owari tsuba    $425 + shipping-

I've been busy at the Aquarium and not had time to time to list on the various Facebook venues.

I figured I would give NMB one last chance before off to the "hordes".

   Given the multiple meanings behind the design, I felt this one was a bit more special for an martial artist here that might grok them.

One bump,

before it goes over to the Facebook hoards.

8 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Distinctively characteristic writing, especially the small 'arms' and wide 'legs' of 光

You've done a good job helping YSAKE so far.

The pics of the papers helped much. I was hoping it would be from the Osafune Bizen line (康光), where I have many of the books.

The other form of 'Yasu' mostly rules that out, so now it is a process of elimination of the remaining suspects. The uncharacteristically wide legs of 'Mitsu' should help narrow down this particular John Hancock-like signature.

dude....

shut up and appreciate a late Christmas or early St. Patrick's Day

   I use two of those books on a regular basis, and the third one is worth worth at least $35-50 USD.

Akasaka or Owari tsuba    $425 + shipping

   This is a very famous Akasaka design, though supposedly of Owari origin. Published in many many books, and it is very rare to find an example for sale.

My opinion:  the geometry on this one is more Owari than Akasaka.  It is thick and the sukashi is more Owari drop edged.

I believe this to be a kodai example, and I am pricing it as such. 

Not a $4250 shodai ko-Akasaka, but fairly $425 as a kodai-Akasaka or kodai Owari.

The patina is a flat brown and a bit thin in 2 spots. See pics.

I think it would be a great one for mounting.

Size:   79.5mm  x  79mm  x 5.8mm thick.

Please ask all questions. PM me if interested.

I will leave it up here for 24 hours before letting the Facebook groups have a grab at it.

Curran

Dragon by Edvard Munch Ichiryu Tomotoshi.

Saw one that might be useful for a project.

PM sent.

It seems someone has been posting masterpiece level work while I was off winter hiking in the mountains.

Thank you for sharing this J.

    The first time I saw one of these Risendo School Crows under the Moon was shortly after 9/11 in Sotheby's.

It was a spark of beauty that rekindled the spirit after the horror of sight, sound, and smells we had just been through.

On 2/3/2024 at 1:55 AM, BIG said:

Tsuba boxes with bamboo association to yagyu tradition

 

http://www.aoijapan....ings/2016/F16476.jpg

?

was that listed 8 years ago?

This one more recently: https://ginzaseikodo.../fittings/yagyufune/

And are we discussing again whether or not the Ono tsuba makers also made Yagyu tsuba?

Yes, they do have a lot of similarities, but I don't feel they are the same.

Found one dealer, but he has been Out of Stock for years.

http://www16.plala.o...abakokuwabuti-e.html

I remember that one of the box makers permanently closed down during the Pandemic.

He/she/they couldn't have been the only makers.

As of several years ago, this site had them:

https://www.namikawa....com/product-list/20

Old thread from several years ago:

1 hour ago, BIG said:

https://www.ebay.com...3:g:NEYAAOSwKfZk36rX

Peter- thank you, but not the shitty ones. There is a sea of those.

I'm asking about the old-school better made boxes, as pictured.

I thought they were still available.

Please see attached picture of the "DELUXE" variety, as they were once described when they were for sale.

Does anyone still sell these much better mulberry edged boxes?

If so, I would greatly appreciate a link. I cannot seem to find them for sale anymore. All the ones one Ebay and elsewhere seem to be the junky $10-$20 variety.

Okay, I had some good luck today.

Karma forward price cut:

$399 for tsuba and box 

(or $360 for just the tsuba)