Peter Bleed

echizen ju Mune...shige mebbe

Looks like a casting. I am not sure that answers your question, but I'd assume this is an Edo period piece.

Peter

I joined the NBTHK in 1969 but have had a consistently hard time staying involved. Clearly operating the club is a lot of work. At the moment I am having problems contacting the American Branch. Can anybody tell me who/how to contact?

Peter Bleed

I stumbled on to this thread earlier today. Holy Cow! I will NOT say I "care" about this topic or that I think it contributes DEEPLY to the study of Nippon-to. BUT there is some really outstanding thought and work here. Thank you and WOW!

I sincerely hope that the major players - Bruce and John - will take a step back, organize the available information, and then published the results. When it is all in a clear presentable form, I wonder if anybody in Japan would be at all interested in this work.

Like I said, WOW!

Peter

This discussion truly is interesting. And I certainly don't wish to argue with true experts. But, there is no question that a wide variety of cast iron objects were made and use in Japan in late Edo times, various vessels, roof tiles, agricultural gear.... Making these things involved hand finishing and removal of sprues etc. This is work that peasants in Iwate-ken did to avoid starvation.

There were as well, guys who needed to wear a sword from time to time, but who could only  afford mass-produced cheapos like the cast iron tsuba we see today.

Peter

Sorry, I had my ears off for a bit, Jeremiah has certainly improved the presentation. And I certainly have got to address the 5th generation. That is the hole in my research and in the spreadsheet. Did everyone see the picture of the burial spot of the entire Kunikane line that is shown in the latest issue of Token Bijutsu? They are "buried" in a nice tight circle that is a tourist stop in Sendai.

Peter

               I am feeling trapped by a pair of fat-tailed squirrels so I have decided - naturally – to share my situation with this fine community. The beasts that are vexing me are a really nice pair of menuki (Ezo style, I’d say) that came to be with a nice katana koshirae but that retain NO HINT of the original wrap. The fact that the menuki were not lost amazes me, but there they are. And I am not a menuki fancier, but these guys look darn good. They are so nice, indeed, that I have never pushed ahead with getting the tsuka re-wrapped. Are there menuki TOO GOOD to use?

Peter

Sean,

Taking care of Japanese swords is a challenge. "Former glory" and "period correct" are easier to say than they are to address. In fact, a nice Higo shinto like your sword may have had a couple of different sets of fittings at any one moment, not to mention replacements as owners and tastes changed. There is NO simple answer to what a good, middle rank sword should/did/might look like. As the current owner, your tastes matter. You get to decide what style/fashion/type you prefer. And, in any case, restoration is NOT something you can do. You need an expert's skills and the advice of a dealer who can (for a price) provide you with fittings that are right for 1) the sword,and 2) your plan. And be patient! Finding the people and the pieces needed for this project will take a long time. It will happen away from you and will follow a schedule that you do not command. You will probably want to meet other collectors who can help you find and make the contacts you will need. Oh, and that is FUN. You may even discover other stuff that you will want!

Peter

Here is my attempt to present the Kunikane line -- against the whole chronology of the Edo period.

Peter

Kunikane Line.xlsx

After Matsunoki-sama got us looking at the – ahhh – interesting shin-shinto Kunikane tanto, I got out some older notes and files on the KUNIKANE line. (Thank you! Colin!). One thing led to another and I bumped into  a big old file I had forgotten. Several years ago I tried to pour the KUNIKANE genealogy into an EXCEL file. I have no skill with the program, or computer Nihongo, or the Kunikane genealogy. But it is kind of interesting to see how the “line” was organized.

Should I/could I post that file here and would anybody find it interesting?

Peter

Well, gee, another Tenmei dated Kunikane. I suppose some people like them, and I'd take it if you were going to drop it off at the Goodwill.....

But seriously, ... a very nice, shinshinto tanto by the guy who was setting out to revitalize the Kunikane line. The "line" had been maintained between the 5th and 9th generations, but without leadership or - I think - actually continuity. It was officially recognized and everybody knew how to do masame. Number 10 started an apprenticeship in Sendai but then went down to Edo is like 1778 or so and started work with Masahide. He actually ko-signed at least one blade with Masahide so there were no flies on him, BUT he died in Tenmei 6, which is like 1786 when he was 29. The Kunikane line just couldn't catch a break.

Tom's assessment is perceptive and interesting. There certainly were lots of re-signed blades created with, for,  and about Kunikane. There were guys in Edo who made high-contrast masame during the shin-shinto era. Whoever made it (and I'd bet on KK 10) this looks like classic, late Edo period carry sword - flashy, famous, and real good. Kind of over the top.

Peter

A good discussion. Thank you all.

In fact, I was kind of wondering about Korea as a point of origin. We certainly know that Japanese firearms were used in Korea. And there would have been several ways that Korean materials might have arrived in early modern Japan.

Peter

I agree with Piers. BUT I sort of suspicion that not all of this is "Japanese." Elsewhere in East Asia and colonial Japan?? How would we check?
Peter

Dear STEFd,

You ask an interesting question. I have collected Ainu stuff for sometime and, indeed, have some items that I am thinking of -ahhh - shedding. Indeed I have formed three Ainu collections and "returned" two of them to a museum in Sendai. I also have a rather large library on Ainu material culture. Ainu "swords" are fairly broadly defined. They are also rather frail so they are often not in great shape!. I'd be eager to hear about your interests. Indeed, I think we all would. My main interests are with field knives and so-called makiri. Might there be any reason to send you some snapshots?

I just read - and enjoyed ! - this thread. Thank you all! I knew the answer right from the first image, but the discussion of worthy. And then we got to listen to Ford and see some stuff that was worth looking at. NMB at its best! We all have had the opportunity to look at/buy/swap Soten guards. This thread shows us that even if we don't like Soten stuff,  those experiences are not be wasted!

Peter

Simon,  this is indeed an interesting presentation. Thank you. I am interested, but suspicious. The reality is that Japanese sword experts know little about swords from other regions.  The threaded tang is certainly odd. This sword deserves to be studied in Europe or at least by European researchers.

Again, thank you for this post!

Peter

I'm sorry to say that I did not attend this Show. But my friend Doug Scott went to the big show to look at high-end frontier guns. I asked Doug to walk thru the Japanese section. He kindly called to tell me that the Japanese Sword section was by far the most active and apparently well-attended part of the the grand Las Vegas Show. The Nippon-to section had more people than did the "gun" sections. Doug also said that he was welcomed and greeted by Mark when he said hello.

Peter

This looks to me like quite legitimate Edo period sword. I read it as a older - ie pre-1600 - sword that was cut down for subsequent wear. It is hard to assess quality since it is out of polish, but it looks okay to me - for what it is, a sword of sword worn for travel or interior wear.

Peter

Please forgive my mis-typings in this message. I really have to proof read my messages! I was worried about posting the images and ignored the words!

Peter

I have an wish to sell a Belgian pin fire pistols that wears an early Japanese registration in Okayama. I'd like $500, but...

Peter

Once again - perhaps I should say - as usual, the NMB has been a useful resource. "Collecting" Japanese swords has been a part of my life for a long time and for the past several years, this has been a good place for me to enjoy the interest. I infer that the process of getting rid of collections is less well-explored than acquisitions and assessment. That probably makes sense since we acquire a lot more than we disperse. Colin provided very useful advice.  And we all appreciate Brian's steady hand on the NMB helm. Thank you!

Peter

Friends,

I  am requesting advice and guidance on how to get rid of collected swords. My hobby has been searching for, finding, and researching Japanese weapons. I have not kept everything, But I have a lot of stuff. Early in the winter I was contacted by an old friend -- about buying his collection. And just recently I got another call. And I might be getting ready to down-size. I cant hope that parting with stuff can be nearly as much fun as acquiring it was. But it is where I am...

Let me ask for advice.

Is there a good way to break up collections? Are there good strategies for getting fair value, finding good homes, or helping the hobby? Are there things to be avoided? Have people been happy with NMB as a market?

Peter

I think I would like to open the New Year with a bit of sawasa, maybe even in a nice set of sword fittings. Is there any other there?

Peter

Gene,

I am jealous of your interest and curiosity. I wish you well. The reality is that there was great export of antique firearms from Japan to the US and the world beginning in the early 20th century. That dumped thousands of guns over here. There was another - smaller - wave after WWII.

American collectors were attracted to Japanese  hinawa-ju because they were cheap and fit the evolutionary thinking of the times. Everybody wanted to show the evolution of guns.

But there was a return wave - back to Japan -  starting in the 1980. Dealers bought those cheap Japanese guns and got them back to Japan. Once the guns sent BACK got to Japan, they were sorted, tricked out, and repaired - oh, and marked way UP. THAT'S what is in Japan now - nice, clean well assessed guns. There are still matchlocks available on this side of the pond - where they may be rather poorly maintained . They are not well-assessed, but they are priced at 40% to 50% the Japanese rate.

Given where you are, I'd urge you to buy local, buy books, and develop skills of restoration and maintenance.

The export "process" might be interestingly explored. Maybe anthropologists or political scientist would find that interesting. But, from a collecting point of view, it seems worth asking what is in Japan that cannot be matched by pieces already here. What are you looking at?

Peter