Alex A

Another reason for the difference in condition. Didn't some Samurai walk about with just a wak a lot of the time? at the end of the Edo?

Sometimes, 2 swords where size was not that much different. As in nakago ana size.

Guess we will never know. 

Can understand someone wanting a matching set of these type of tsuba in particular,

I do............ lol.  Have one similar made from copper, had a chance to acquire one to match but other commitments. Kick myself a bit for that, would have made a nice display.

Hi Piers, no expert

The most obvious difference is one seems to have delicate thin metal around the kogai ana, the other quite thick.

Patina, level of surface pitting seems to differ between them.

Both large as you point out

Get the impression someone paired them together at some point. 

Impossible to say when but who knows, perhaps a previous owner in the past knows they were paired together, family history.

Amazing Piers, what a vast array there is.. We are very lucky to have you on NMB!. 

Do you know if all those cannon were manufactured in Japan ? .No expert, some look Japanese and some Western,  i guess maybe influenced by Western Cannon around at that time, especially the one on the Naval carriage. One reminds me of a lantaka.

A lot to take in, appears quite a few could come under the "swivel cannon" type.

A really nice ornate cannon, looks bronze.

Like the one on the carriage with the wood stock., that's fantastic, i want one.

Lots of various cannon balls/shells. They actually remind me of that Sherman round from ww2.

Absolutely amazing collection, id have a field day in there lol

Yes please Piers, love cannon, cheers

Ps, about stuff in boxes. Was curious about the pocket pistol above and contacted the dealer.  Always have doubts so asked if the box was original to the gun. Appears not, even though looks it. Live and learn, pays to be curious about such matters.

Wouldn't look forward to moving house with some of those cannons, look really heavy!

Boxed stuff, great to own.

Like you only see in high end collections or via forgotten weapons etc on YouTube.

Above, wow.

Piers, yes, those small fully stocked flintlocks. The only relevance to this thread being what Michael was saying.

Been looking for several years and you just don't see them, good ones anyways. Then all of a sudden one dealer in particular seems to have a no ending run of them coming onto his site, its as though an old collector is giving it up and consigning his collection .

Cant remember ever seeing one with the box, this type, same dealer

A Small Cased Flintlock Pistol (garthvincent.com)

Piers, when something rare comes along that you have been after for a while then you have to pull the trigger (even when skint lol)

Who knows when it will turn up again, maybe decades

Well done, looking forward to seeing them 

Ps, coincidentally, also noticed a few rarities lately.  Seems to be quite a few of those pocket pistols around lately that i like, does seem like some old collector has sent them on to the market.

Briefly read about the fleur-de-lys symbol and it is linked with Christianity.

One issue i have is whether or not the pattern on the Kabuto is in fact fleur-de-lys decor ?

Very little linking that symbol to Japan and its use there, but who knows, maybe I'm wrong. 

Just seems a very bold claim.

I guess biased beliefs come easier when your on the selling end.

 Know the feeling Russ. You see a random flintlock and then end up reading about Blackbeard 

Must work for them.

Well, this dealer is known for the odd cheeky monkey prices and write-ups.

Also, possibly the "Shogun effect", a situation where dealers take advantage of tv shows. 

I fear some inflated prices ahead

That's a corker, with the old carved waves

One that if i owned and sold, one day i would regret it.

Really ?

The Lanes Armoury | A Beautiful and Most Impressive Nanban-Nari Kabuto High Conical Samurai Helmet. Likely of A Christian Samurai, Known As Krishitan, Momoyama to Edo Period. With Menpo Face Armour

Paz, 

There are differing opinions regarding papers. Some folks want them for every sword they own whilst others maybe when it comes to buying expensive swords. Others feel they don't need them at all. Depends on folks knowledge and how deep their pockets are. Some folks rely on papers because they have no interest in wanting to learn about swords, it can be daunting and time consuming so they see it as a shortcut to knowing a sword is authentic. Horses for courses.

Thanks Jussi, a surprising amount of data to take in there, wow, 207 examples of a Nagamitsu swords. 

Makes me wonder. As you mention, NBTHK is a business and i kind of would feel slightly disappointed if they were not making headway down there regarding compiling information/images onto a pc and learning something new from it. Maybe i expect too much though. They have the opportunity to look further with the numbers they see and record, though obviously that would have to be independent of Shinsa. schedule. 

15 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Every forum I've been to unfortunately has the same pattern - me being almost the solo voice who has some idea what the items presented are and a dozen or so people who daily post that its impossible to understand anything unless its presented to "experts".

Such is life.

Come back for one more point as this thread is interesting.

Well Kirill, i understand what your saying. 

Folks can work stuff out if they have some knowledge and know what they see and give an opinion, obviously. Unfortunately, an Alex Hozen or a Kirill Hozen etc don't cut it in the sales market.

There are more sought after opinions from wiser folks that give opinions with blade in hand and not images.

Seriously John, never going to happen but if NBTHK made ALL info regarding ALL Hozen mei available to the general public. Regarding all the well known smiths,

I would assume it will blow anything we own out of the water and make those that think they have it sussed realise that they don't.

Would bet even eyebrows get raised down there as to what got passed in the past.

Though the ongoing nature of what they do puts them in charge and they get to see it in a perspective we will never likely see.

Made the point, don't want to keep coming on here and upsetting folks.

Will end on that, again lol.

Bye.

Hi Thomas, not angry, just frustrated, with the hobby in general.

Actually taking a break from the hobby but will come back just to clarify a little.

I'm not pulling theories out of thin air by the way.

We all look at things differently, some of us may have seen stuff out of the norm with blades we own and swords we see for sale online. 

Ive seen, own, blades by WELL KNOWN smiths (with HOZEN) where the mei has a discrepancy, an obvious discrepancy. You look in the books, usual Fujishiro or whatever and noted discrepancy is NOT in there, no record of it. 

Over the years, that FACT as got me wondering about NBTHK data. If said blades where the mei has a discrepancy (yes, using that word again) have HOZEN, then that means the NBTHK MUST have ACCESS to much more data than any of us here. Either that or they have no choice to give hozen as the rest of the blade speaks for itself and the mei is as they might think, close enough. I cant imagine the NBTHK not compiling info in the hope of pushing this hobby further. Anyone here can look at online stores, look at mei from well known smiths. At times it can be quite surprising and enlightening. 

When folks here state stuff like "I believe using the same references that the shinsa teams" then to me its not entirely true. As stated above, its a mistake to think any library we own can compete with the data/knowledge of NBTHK, folks that do this for a living.

So when i see folks here debating a mei and coming to conclusions they think are FACT, without looking at the blade first, in  polish, then it starts to niggle a little. 

As said, nothing wrong with opinions if they if's and maybe, see someone that knows better etc.

Our opinions are formed by what we see and they are always changing as we see more, often contradicting what we think we know.

We here toy with the hobby, we just don't see enough or know enough. In that respect, we are way behind and its wrong to state opinions as FACTS

In me eyes a lot of it is still a mystery, the hobby is surrounded by BS and think we are still somewhat in the dark ages. For me, that's the issue with Japanese swords. It needs to advance, its too easy for us just to sit here and talk about stuff we think we know. Have been impressed with Jussi over recent years, its folks like him that are pushing this hobby further with compiling useful information and very kindly sharing it. I guess there is some light in that respect.

Anyways, just making a point and thats all i want to say again on this subject, goodbye for now.

Best

Perplexed Al

I surely don't want to have to comment again in this thread but feel i would be doing anyone new to the hobby a real INJUSTICE if i don't make this point. On that basis I'm just going to state it and bail out of this nonsense for a while.

ALWAYS assume gimei, especially when a lot of what we can see of this sword is an unpolished bar of steel.. Especially when there is a lack of detailed information such as dimensions and pictures of a certain standard. Cant judge blades in any way when the images look like they were taken in a dark broom cupboard with a camera phone from 2001.

DO NOT make the mistake of judging a blade by what little can be seen here and DO NOT let your own bias get in the way.

WITHOUT all the necessary information then i think its arrogant and ignorant to state whether a blade is factually gimei. That is up to someone that knows better with the blade in hand..

Folks here can have opinions and you know what, they could be right but that's not up to us as as we don't have all the relevant information at hand.

Basing an opinion just on the mei, well, that's FUNDEMENTALLY WRONG. There's a THOUSAND reasons a mei might be off. We here do not have the database of seeing many many examples in hand and documenting them. Studying what you do see and maybe coming up with matches that are far beyond what went into old books many years ago, Modern tech is way past that. Its ignorant to think any library we have now is worthy of making such decisions.

Bias can be a strong element in making decisions. Lets say i think the horimono is not up to the standard of the smith. If that's the case then i may posibly ignore the painfully obvious fact of the lack of information available. Again, we can look at the horimono and think it is not of the standard of the smith but should we base our decision on that fact?. As we don't have a time machine available then we do not know for sure who may have done the horimono. For all we know, it may have been an apprentice at the forge or even someone far later down the line, maybe even done during WW2. Who knows, we certainly don't

The point to this ramble. Its ok to have opinions, just don't claim them as FACT without having all relevant information. 

Not commented on this sword for that reason

Would be like watching experts on tv discussing a picture by Constable, only with a blanket thrown over it and just showing a signature and some of the painting. That's what i see happening here.

Agree John, they just come across as thick and trying their luck

Though i bet they get lucky from time to time.

The thing for me, hardly know Chris but getting an obvious made up sob story

FFS, when will folks learn that there are no rules in this game, chasing shadows.

Spoke to someone today that makes everyone here sound like an amateur, including you Jacky boy

Not everyone seeks attention or needs to be the "all seeing eye" in some online bull*****

Nothing can be ascertained by what's available in these terrible images from the OP

Some folks moan about judging swords from images yet still carry on

Some swords with good images can be judged, easy ones, as mentioned in other threads. Some cant, simple as that.

Cant even see the blade here!!!!!!!!!!!!.Talk about putting the cart before the horse!. What happened to judging the blade and then the mei?.  

What happened to that new rule about measurements and photos?, ,peeing in the wind

If folks have something to say then stop talking in RIDDLES. like the RIDDLER, it just shows you know nothing and are pulling examples from books, otherwise you would just state FACTS Thing is, its ongoing accumulating  history, what's proven FACTS? lol.

Line up EVERY sword, until then, shut up with the (brackets), seems folks think that if they have SEVERAL or even a DOZEN examples of a smiths mei then that makes them an EXPERT know it all, even thought the smith/lineage might have made say a THOUSAND PLUS sword.s Id be bloody EMBARASSED to come on this site with a page from a book showing a mei and proclaiming it gospel, sadly, history dictates unknowable's, we will never know about.

The exception to rule rule seems like all this hobby is about these days, like one big CONTRADICTION

Again, about as authentic as an airhostess smile, its UNKNOWN history a lot of the time yet some folks talk like everything is FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Its BS a lot of the time.

I've put this here because don't know where else to put it

Had weird email today, obviously fraud.

Spoke to Steve at Token North and he has had the same mail

Seems someone maybe using Chris email 

Anyways, email below. If you know Chris, please tell him............................................

I don't know Chris well enough to receive such an email

"Glad to hear from you,

I need you to get an Apple gift card for a friend's daughter who is down with cancer of the Liver, it's her birthday today and I promised to get it for her today, but I can't do this now because all my effort purchasing it online proved abortive. Can you get it from Amazon? I'll reimburse you back as soon as possible.

Kindly let me know if you can handle it.

Chris"

The darker colour does give it a more antique feel.

I guess most antique gun/cannon stocks appear darkish in colour.

Sometimes, really dark.

Only just seen this, nice sword.

Have to say, Mal is top notch to deal with.

What Ed said

As you describe it as a crack, then you get points of view regarding a crack.

Hopefully as Brian points out. maybe something else.

Think we have all learned something here Piers, i had no clue they used Urushi on those cannons.