kunitaro

Agree with Jean san above. (osuriage) mumei balde is more for Advanced collector. unsigned blade must be judge by only quality and condition of the blade. so, It must be high quality and healthy (not much polished out) to remain original. Quality is meaning the quality of craftsmanship. you can recognize the school or the smith by its craftsmanship, it is called high quality. with mumei blade, we can do kantei game with only Juyo blades. It can be good study piece. Low quality mumei is less craftsmanship, less typical activities. sometime activities are mixed with everything....so it can be anything. such as "Waki-mono" put side from Gokaden. because less identity. so, you can not learn almost anything from Low quality mumei blade even with Hozon paper, only make you confuse.. will not progress your eye. As Study piece for beginners should be a SIGNED blade with Hozon (so signature is guaranteed), so, you can study what is what. then you are on right track. if it is Signed but, Suriage Nakago, you can buy much cheaper than Ubu or katana, Study one by one with books. Then start to recognize the sword.... I think that is the cheapest and quickest way to reach the basic. You are free only after the basic. What do you think ?

For Juyo and higher level cetification is not very important to discuss on this board, it is going to be only gosipps. Advanced collectors and dealer should be able to to Judge the swotd by themselves. If they make mistake or be cheated by depending on the papers, we can laugh at them. This Topic (information) is more for Beginners and normal collectors who want to study and maybe investers. There is some kind of standard or basic for undertanding quality of the Japanese sword. Kanteisho/Origami is an opinion by experts, so, you can study their opinion through the item(sword). and those Opinion should be up-dated. Hozon is issued by passing very basic standard. Tokubetsu-hozon and Higher papers are for its quality level. so, we should start from Hozon papers to lean or collect.

I had nice talk with mr.Toyama in Sanjo Niigata. He own the sword which we are talking about. This sword was well known because, it is in the book Kurihara nobuhide no kenkyu. It was on sale by a dealer 4-5years ago. so, mr.Toyama contact the dealer for question. The sword had no paper, so, mr.Toyama asked if the dealer can guarantee the sword will get Tokubetsu Hozon, the dealer couldn't (because, Hori was ??). so, mr.Toyama could buy it with a bit discount. ( It got TH paper later ) after he purchased, and study the blade, as he thought, The Ha has "shimi-gokoro(weak parts) as most of the blade with original Hori. so, he confirmed the Hori is original. also, he said that from knowing mr.Abe Akitada has done(produced) many Fake Nobuhide sword in the past (during dishonest NBTHK priod). Good Horimono by Akitada is unrecognizable by even experts. so, checking Balance of Hamon and Hori is one of the good method to Judge Nobuhide's sword. He also mentioned there is a few swords in the book is not genuine. if you want, i will be able to get more info.

I believe that NBTHK Ninteisho System (Kicho TokubetsuKicho Koshu-TokubetsuKicho) was finished at Showa 57 nen 8 gatsu (1982 Aug.). It was big incident, much more than we can imagine. Most of important kanteika, a lot of smith, polishers, and Politicians and Yakuzas were involved. it was opened discussion at JP Parliament, News was all over Japan. as soon as NBTHK re-newed to Kanteisho Sytem (Hozon Tokubetsuhozon), most of the collectors and dealers started to apply New Hozon shinsa. Started from Zero. When the sword gets new Hozon paper, you don't need the old paper anymore. When the sword doesn't get new Hozon, NBTHK didn't take old paper, they returned with the sword and they kept their archive, so, if you confirm old papers to NBTHK, they still have archive. so, you can confirm the paper at NBTHK, They don't say it is not good anymore. They just confirm the paper is registered.. i think that was for preventing from panicking its market. Maybe the first 10years, most of good sword has got new Hozon or tokubetsuhozon (or Juyo). Next 10 years were still small chance for people who can really see the sword, or who has special information about it. After Internet became popular. The swords moved much quicker and more swords on market, non-professional also can deal without responsibility. myself was busy with papering those days.... so, many swords with old paper had sold with dream. and every time the sword has sold, new owner send it to Shinsa for new paper, when it doesn't get new Hozon, the sword goes back on market with old paper. or try to get NTHK or Fujishiro paper. when it still don't get other papers, then it will be for sale with still old papers..... it has been those situation for while, so we can imagine so many swords has been for Shinsa already many many times. as we know Yahoo auction in JP had prohibited Swords within a few years, because of so much problems. maybe last 5 years or so, Old Papers (Kicho,TokubetsuKicho,Koshu-Tokubetsu) are recognized as Certification for fake item, guarantee Not to get Hozon.... so, Nobody buy the sword with old paper in Japan now. Bidders Auction in Japan also finished by now. When you see JP sword forum such as "2ch", you can not believe what they are taking about... I will share those topics sometime from now on... haha. Most of collectors and All of dealers in Japan know what they are handling. you can not say "Oh,, I didn't know..." in Japan. Now, new people who are doing eBay auction etc,. they are not really a sword dealers, more like Internet business people who are starting New World wide Internet business. some of them doesn't even know those fact. doing honest straight trading selling on Auction "as it is". However, i think it is time to tell the truth like Jean san ! To lead us for Fair Play.... Best regards PS: I am not saying All of old papers 100% are Bad, but, could be 90% or more...

誠一 Sei ichi

mr.Toyama and i didn't have enough time to talk. He told me that Abe Akitada is one of the souce of the Theory "Carving before Yaskiire". and About Horimono of Ansei 7 Katana (mr.Eric mentioned above) used to be believed as Ato-bori in local collectors, but, mr.Toyama believe that is Jishin-bori. and He has an episode for this sword which he will tell us next time. Let's wait for an interesting story. Best

I just Translated the Juyo zufu ? said " Hori-kuchi ga fukaku (deeply carved) a bit different from his normal hori. further more, Amano uzume no mikotoxxx Need further research." Which is meaning is Hori is not original. Same as Some (old) Hozon paper said "xxx to mei ga aru" it is meaning Signature is gimei. and the new post's description is not declaring as Jishin-bori. It is saying "Great Horimono AS YOU SEE" However, Please don't take as personal. I am completely natural. it is for my study as well. I received another mail from mr.Toyama. He is a friend of Abe Akitada. mr.Toyama used to visit him discuss about Atobori on Nobuhide's sword before Akitada passed away... I will write later or tomorrow. Best

Dear Eric san, I received an answer about The Tanto of Keio 3 nen from mr. Toyama (he is a mamber of Nagaoka brach) He said that he used to own the Tanto by himself. His note said that is 'ko-nie-deki" and Ha is Shimi-gokoro (some weak parts in ha). because, of same reason bellow. About Dragon Horimono, He said that He can not declear Yes or No.... need further study... Dear Adan san, I don't mind at all ! I enjoy this OPENED DISCUSSION !!! That is the good about NMB isn't it ? Yes, but, it is not me saying, the book (auther(s) incl, mr.Toyama) is explaining it, mr,Toyama said " for sure ! he made carving before Yakiire, it is common sense with us " so, we have to research further by ourselves. It is very interesting subject to study for myself as well !!!

Dear Eric san I am not saying there is no (zero) Horimono with Nie-deki blades. MOST of Nobuhide's blade with Horimono is a bit weaker deki. because, his hesitation of Yakiire, When he do Yakiire with Horimono, he in unconsciously unstable or weaken Temperature of Yakire, of cause there is Nioi-deki blade which he did consciously. as i wrote " the bright strong hamon with good horimono is the master piece of Master piece" However, the Dragon Horimono at Aoi art, looks a bit different from the dragon which i posted. I just mailed question about this dragon hori to NBTHK Nagaoka/Niigata Branch ( they are the most knowledge about Nobuhide ) i will post when i get answer. This is for my study as well ! PS: mr.Ito Sanpei is mentioning about Atobori of Nobuhide's blades. there is so many Ato-bori on Nobuhide's blade, some are really well done.

The Book Kurihara Nobuhide no Kenkyu (A Study of Kurihara Nobuhide) is published by NBTHK Niigata Branch at 1976. Many experts and craftsmen were involved on the book. Sanjo city in Niigata is traditionally famous for Cutting tool . There is a lot of professional personal from Steel industry there. I think that Most of sword smith and especially Horimono-shi had read this book. and the book has been in public and having high reputation for 36 years. If there is any mistake or argument, it should already pointed and fixed. Therefore, we should observe those information to study further. it is just pity that only less than 10% of Japanese sword books are translated. BTW, Let us compare the Horimono again. Let us think what makes different between Nobuhide;s Hori and others. it is only Technique ? or with the method ? or something else ??

Thank you very much Eric san, ********************************************* --- Hori-kuchi ga fukaku (deeply carved) a bit different from his normal hori. further more, Amano uzume no mikoto xxx ********************************************* at least Juyo Zufu is mentioning the horimono is not original. Now, we see, Horimono is completely different story from original. The Blade is excellent Nie-deki Katana ! but, the Hori.... Now,we know something about Nobuhide, at least we can recognize easily Jishin-bori and Ato-bori.

**************************************************************************** Hamon : Gunome, Ashi Nagaku Hairi(Long Ashi), Nie Fukaku tsuki(Deep/Thick Nie), sunagashi, Kinsuji Kakaru. Boshi : Notare-komi, Omote : Hakikake, Ura : Saki-Maru. Hori Omote : Bo-hi and Soe-hi, Amano Uzume no Mikoto Ukibori, Ura : Bo-hi Nobori-ryu ukibori Explaination : Longish Katana, it has very thick Nie on Ha, Horimono need further study because, it is deep carving and XXX (Hori-kuchi ga Fukaku xxx) missing text. ****************************************************************************** This is Nie-deki blade, and Horimono is Ato-bori. not by Nobuhide. Do you have photo of this Horimono ?

a bit eaxtra translation, the sentence started from middle at p54. It said that there is a few other Horimono(s) which already Yakiire are exactoly the same as it (ompressive) (8 not sure about if it talking about this Fudo-myoo,) also, it said the reason is not only Harder material. but, Quality of Horimono. My translation may be not good enough. It said that when you do Yakiire after carving, the surface of carving deeper parts and top parts get Yakire equally. so, whole carving will shine like jem stone. if you carve after Yakiire, deeper parts which is chiseled in parts is un-tempered , only surface of carving is tempered.. so, it shine differently... mmm, my limited English... hope it make sense or anybody could follow up ?

more upper parts. more Nioi-deki, Which is meaning that Tempreture control is not 100% perfect... There we see Nobuhide's hesitation of Yakiire. There is many compete Nioi-deki long sword, but, not many complete Nie-deki blades.

This is a bit upper part of the blade, a few cm above Ameno uzume no mikoto, the cloud parts. There is almost no Nie, become more Nioi-deki,

This hitsu-ana is called "Funazoko-gata" shape of Bottom of boat. you can find Tsuba with this type of hitsuana at Nanbokucho-muromachi period. Check Mariuzs's Avatar. He is specialized on this area, PS ; I discovered this Tsuba, and got Hozon paper as ko-kinko(i think) then sold it long time ago, now, i used photo for Avatar, then Mariusz found out, told me " It is mine !" Now, it is own by him. small world.... Hope he doesn't mind that i posted photo here.

This is almost same in Japan. Matial artist would talk about technique or movement (or target to cut etc,.), not much attention to the sword itself. and Sword collectors are busy with sword itself. not much attention to Budo. I think that Samurai understood both in one. At least till Meiji period, After ww2, the situation has changed big time, because, Japanese sword had to survive as an Art object. so, Art sword collectors and Matial artist has separated....

Thank you very much, Morita san !! *****simple translation***** Kurihara Nobuhide no kenkyu (A Study of Nobuhide) P54 he had archived the design of Ameno uzume no mikoto from 20 years of working as Butsugu-shi ( Buddhist ornament maker ) His Horimono of the mirror which ordered by Minatogawa family, the Choku-to sword in Yahiko shrine and the sword own by mr.Fukushima Yokichi are exactly same, there are very impressive. the swords i have seen by Showa 12-13 (1937-1938), the blade with horimono were rare. but, there is more sword with Horimono nowadays. this is myth... There was no material which is harder than tempered Tamahagane, so smith had take risk of carve before Yakiire, The photo of Fudo-myoo is the sword extant (preserved) at the stage before Ywkiire at Kurihara family's. He stooped carving at this stage, then do yakiire (Yakiba-watashi) After Yakiire, he carve more finer parts to finish up. by this method, the hardness become equal from bottom to top of carving, and it will shine like a jem stone after polish. This Fudo-myoo is very unique, because, he has neckless with mirror, it is expressing of Nobuhide as a mirror maker. which we shouldn't miss. However, we have modern hard (steel) material which is harder than tempered steel, so modern craft man could carve on old sword easily. and they are doing, How should i observe this fact ? ************************************************** when we look at zoomed Ameno uzume no mikoto. I guess The basic carving is done before Yakiire, and a few ke-bori ( like 2 plants coming out from heard ) is done after Yakiire. could you see ? What do you think ?

Thank you for your attention. I will discuss with mr.Toyama and more. Let us go deeper. Here is closer image for consideration

Dear Hans, That sword is a bit after Kanbun period style. a bit more sori than Kanbun (straight) but, the blade had a bit Suriage (shortend) so, lost Funbari, and Sori became more straight. which is good for Tsuki, less cutting, but should be thick Haniku. they were made to use. however, it is not very useful for modern Iai, a bit short...i think. best

Dear Eric, Thank ou for your comment. Yes, i was thinking same before. Tempering/quenching makes only Hamon parts harder... because, of cray/Yakiba-zuchi. however, Hiraji is also tempered, not much as ha. Utsuri is also parts of hamon. as mr.Toyama explained, we didn't have material which is harder than tempering tamahagane. which makes me think about it. and i have a few experience that re-tempered koto katana by modern smith. it was normal a bit tired thin blade. for try out. smith had almost no problem to put new hamon on it. the surface of the bkade didn't damaged much. compare to Nobuhide's dragon and Sadatoshi's. what makes so different? only chiseling technique ?

We came very far.... Should we go back to Tameshigiri ??

interesting ? me too !!! so, I just mailed to one of my teacher mr.Toyama Noboru who is part of the Book [A Study of Nobuhide] the best and biggest collector and researcher of Nobuhide in Japan. He made a few very good article of Nobuhide at NBTHK Tokenbijutsu. He is 3rd generation of biggest distributor of Edged tools based on Sanjo city. so Nobuhide is his Local smith. He is one of the experts of Japanese steel industry as well. and I just received his reply. attaching a copy bellow. very exciting !! 『信秀の研究には、特にそのようなことは書いてありませんが、私か刃物を扱う商売ですので、説明させて頂きますと、 昔は鋼より堅いハイスも、もっと硬い超硬という材質もありませんでしたので、彫をするには焼入れ前にしたはずです。 手間を掛けて彫をした素材を焼入れする時には、失敗したくないという意識がどうしても出るはずで、少し温度を甘めにする・・・、 それが自身彫をする人の心情ではないかと思います。 ですから、彫身の刀に、時々刃が沈み心の作品があるのだと思います。 そう考えると、彫があって刃が冴えた刀こそ名刀とおもうべきだと思います。 ただ、近年、ハイス、超硬という完成した刀に彫れる素材が出て来ましたので、最近の刀工は焼入れ後に彫をするようですよ。』 （とやまのぼる） ****************************************************** It is not mentioning at Nobuhide no Kenkyu, however, Please let me explain from perspective of the edged tool Industry. In old days, we didn't have the material, harder than tempered steel such as HHS (Hyper-Hard-Steel) or HSS (High-speed Steel/High carbon powder steel) which could carve on tempered steel. So Carving should be done before Quenching. When Smith do Yakiire with the blade with Hori which took so much work. he unconsciously using weaker temperature preventing mistake.... That is why we see often Shimi(stein.weaker parts) in Ha of the sword with Horimono. Therefore, the blade with Strong bright Ha with Horimono is the Master piece of master pieces. (Not only Nobuhide sword) Nowadays, we have created Material which could carve on Tempered steel.such as HHS or HSS. I hear that Modern smith is carving after Quenching. (Toyama Noboru) ******************************************************** The live Comment from Japanese experts. from Sanjo to the world !!

This is a work of Gassan Sadatoshi Tanto Yamato no kuni Gassan Sadatoshi Hori-dosaku Heisei 7 nen 8 gatsubi

Horimono work is meaning "Chiseling work" Polishing Horimono could be done by smith or polisher after Yakiire.