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dwmc

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Posts posted by dwmc

  1.  I'm not sorry, I have learned a lot chasing up what I can find about the possibilities of this blades origin. I would hang on and see if you can get it to someone who specialises in Showato, and certainly not me. (I live in England).

    Special Thank You you Dave R and Brian for remaining open to what this sword may actually be. I would be honored to have either one of you have a look in hand and share your opinions!

     

    Dave

    • Like 1
  2. Ok im totally confused now, blade looks old, perhaps if we started with these pix, shame what was done to nakago. IM lost on it, be glad to take to a show in the spring, lets see if im alive then, Sorry for putting you thru the wringer Dave

     

    I'm sure you'll be alive, and thank you for your offer to take it to the Chi-town show. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute..we'll see.

     

    I have that wakizashi that I found in a pawn shop awhile back which I posted here on the NMB. I did contact Mr. Tenold and spoke with him on the phone. He said he had seen the photos of the wakizashi and stated it probably wouldn't be worth more than just a window polish. We left it at that, we haven't spoken since, and I certainly didn't want to seem pushy, but I have every intention of recontacting him soon. Hopefully, if he can find time, he can take a look at the katana also, open a couple more windows and offer his opinion of this sword .

     

    Dave M

    • Like 1
  3. stop using your phone to take photo's,  they just don't have good enough resolution.

     

    but with thoses kissaki pics, I'm sure you have proved its not made in the last 20 years. that's for sure.

     

    I was reluctant to post those embarrassing pictures, but thought it might at least show age and shape, I've have a much more advanced camera, which I should have used in the first place, and will use for any future pictures..

     

    Seriously, potential kiri-komi, also.post-2175-0-09065300-1514927433_thumb.jpg

     

     

    Dave

  4. Dave and Stephen,

     

    I'm almost sorry drug you guys into this! I'm not sure why after buying the sword many years ago it just won't seem to leave me alone. (What am I,bet you can't guess!!!) Modern faked up something another, Showato experimental, maybe even Meji/taisho with  severely cleaned nakago, I don't know...

     

    Stephen, I spoke with Bob Hughes at the show for as much time as he could offer. Believe it or not, he called the sword Nihonto, even after a replied, youv'e got to be kidding... I admit , even though I'm a rather pathetic looking old guy in my sixties, I know people weren't just being kind...

     

    I'm willing to ship the sword to you or Dave R to have a look in hand, I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't thing maybe there was something to be learned. Mr. Ikeda appeared to me to be a no nonsense sort of professional and would not have thought twice about saying it was some sot of fake something or another..

     

    Dave

    • Like 2
  5.   Interesting photo! Do you have any more information on these?

     

    No Dave, the only thing I can add is the sword is horribly out of polish in all other areas other than the polished window. You may notice just how out of polish looking to the far left of the picture with the white carpet back ground. Hopefully, you can get a least somewhat of an idea of sugata by the full length photo, and possibly by a couple of the others...It just seems to me, the ji is a bit wider than normal, and stays relatively wide all the way to the yokote area, it is sharp to the habaki, with out ubuha.

     

    Amahide factory mixed metal special order would be perfect...(The first sword I ever saw was an Amahide Gendaito at four or five years old. My Father just 9 years home as a young 11th Airborne Paratrooper brought it home as a momento, not a trophy. I'll never forget wondering just what type of magical device this was as the sun light danced up and down the blade...hence my life long interest/affliction/addiction...etc.)

     

    I'm still with you...all due respect to opposing opinions, I'd also say some sort of wwll or pre-wwll sword.

     

    I really want to get a couple more areas opened, will post photos when I do..

     

    Thanks again,

     

    Dave M

  6. Believe me i want to be wrong but these ol eyes has seen a lot over the years, Going to Chi town in spring, i plan on making it. Would love to see in hand. Trust me if the nakago had proper file marks....you have plenty of backers just file me as a ol nut.

     

    I followed this board for many years before making a post or comment...Your not a old nut at all, just calling it the way you see it !

    • Like 2
  7. Dave maybe it looks very similar to modern steel katana.

     

    T-10 steel folded.

    attachicon.gifmodern_t-10_steel.jpg

    Maybe Chris, maybe, believe me, I would like to say yes and be done with it... but I really don't think so, you guys as you said previously, are at somewhat of a disadvantage not having the sword in hand and judging by a few pictures. Stephen mentioned earlier about having Bob Bensen taking a look, and truthfully,  I can't say he didn't. I showed the sword to many people at the 2012 SF sword show. Not one person said modern copy or other wise. Mr. Ikeda also.

     

    These pictures are about as close as I can get to realistic, in hand appearance, color, contrast, etc.. 

     

    I brought the sword for practically nothing , I disregarded the mismatching fittings , and purchased it anyway. I own Nihonto,(some in polish, some out) Gendaito, Type 3, Hantanto, Parade sabers, Type 32's, Bayonets and still this beat up mis-matched Gunto has got me stumped.

     

    post-2175-0-67148300-1514826028_thumb.jpgpost-2175-0-32583000-1514826248_thumb.jpgpost-2175-0-16651100-1514826342_thumb.jpg

     

    Dave

    • Like 2
  8. What I find interesting is how many people "want" this to be a Chinese repro', so they can go back into their comfort zone, and not think about what it might really be!....

     

     

    Dave,  Back on April 11th, 2012 Bruno posted a topic titled "The Seki Tanrensho Book and other Infos." In the post Mr. George Trotter mentions non-traditionaL Gunto from Meji to the end of WWll. He said some very effective weapons were made using new ideas of steel manufacture, forging techniques and battle testing,he referred to Gunsui Electric Steel Co., Yasuki iron, Mantetsuto, Mikasa steel, etc,etc...

     

    Yourself, Brian and others are probably a bit more familiar with  this type of non-traditional sword experimentation during Taisho/Showa. The sword could very well fall into this category.

     

    At one time I considered a full polish and determined it may not be worth the expense until I was able to determine what exactly it is..

     

    I will however, have a Togishi take a look if he is willing, give an opinion, open  a couple more windows ( Kissaki, etc.) and go from there.

    It will take a bit of time, obviously, and will post the results.

     

    Dave

    • Like 1
  9. well it sounds like we have got everyone stumped abit.

     

    maybe a completed polish to help settle  it??

     

    like Brain said, the Japanese did alot of experimenting in the taisho/showa times, 

     

    I can say this. ( I DONT KNOW) early experimental swords have plenty of odd balls. 

     

    Thank you Hamfish and all others for having a go at solving the mystery of this sword. I appreciate everyone's opinion and would like to reiterate my purpose was not portray the sword as something is not, but something leading to discussion in the pursuit of knowledge.

     

    I didn't expect the response the post received, and probably should have titled the topic as "Mantetsu  Sword?" and not made it sound so as a matter of fact. I honestly only expected maybe a somewhat criptic comment from Stephen, ( Stephen is many times Dead on with his opinions ) and also a couple others mentioning that Manchurian steel was quite commonly used pre-WWll and before.

     

    I did have have a suggestion years ago from a very knowledgeable individual who said  the sword was possibly Shin-shinto era which had been a fire at some point. Also, that the Nakago appeared severely cleaned with some type of chemical...

     

    If I were on the opposite end of this topic, frankly looking at the 300% close up at the hada photo, I may have very well said modern Chinese myself.

     

    I have contacted a sword polisher and he tentatively agreed to polish a window in another sword I own, of course as with most Togi their very busy and have a lot going on, I have every intention of reconnecting with him and if I promise not to head his direction with a trunk full of rusted Gunto, maybe he will be kind enough and find the time to at least open a couple of modest windows and hopefully help further our knowledge. 

     

    If I angered anyone from my comments, I apologize, it's due to a basic lack of literary skills and inability to express my self through the written word..

     

    Thanks again to all,

     

    Hopefully further future information,

     

    Dave

    • Like 1
  10. Dave

    we all judge here from photos. Mostly in hand a sword or tosogu looks totaly different. Maybe the dealers see something that we didn't know. And you see that in that topic the meaning goes different. I'm sure that it is not a mantetsu made sword, but it is a well made sword.  :)

     

    Thanks Chris, The sword is what it is. I take no offense and welcome all opinions. I would also like to say I found Mr. Bob Hughes very forthright and honest, and if there was any lack of understanding it was on my part. I'm was, and still am honored by Mr. Ikeda's work on my sword and will recommend their services highly!

     

    As mentioned previously, this is what the board is all about, debate and knowledge. I agree, pictures sometimes just don't tell the full story (particularly mine.)

     

    Dave

    • Like 1
  11. We seem to be going down a one way road here. Personally, I do not think this is Chinese at all, but certainly made from mixed steels. We see this same kind of contrast in Taisho and Showa swords sometimes. Nakago is typical of a Showato style sword. Right shape. Not sure about hamon. But with all the experimenting going on...I don't think this is Chinese, just unconventional wartime experimenting.

    But that's just my opinion, could always be wrong

    Brian, as you know, sword shows are very busy. You really don't want to over dominate a dealers time. This may be in part which led to the confusion regarding this sword. Mr. Hughes was doing his best to answer my questions while dealing with many others.

     

    With all due respect to all learned board members, I'm inclined to think you and Dave R. may be on the right road. Some odd wartime Showato experiment.

     

    Highly value your opinion also,

     

    Dave

    • Like 1
  12. Dave, I'm glad you're willing to listen to experienced members, too often we see members with "unique, rare, unusual" swords that they believe are undocumented treasures us simple enthusiasts are too dim to comprehend.

     

    I'd be glad to look at some more detailed pictures of the Kissaki, Shinogi and overall Sugata/Shape and mounts of the sword so we can really nail down exactly what you have. From the initial pictures you provided the Gunto mounts look authentic, so it would be unlucky to have a modern Chinese blade in them

     

     

     

    John, When I first purchased the sword, I noticed it obviously looked "Pieced together." The blade is what caught my attention, even out of polish as it was, and mostly still is. 

     

    I am willing to accept what ever the member consensus is regarding the blade. Good, bad, no problem...

     

    The sword, other than the polished area, is rough to say the least, at some point I will attempt to get some decent pictures together and send them along to you.

     

    Thanks for your offer,

     

    Dave

    • Like 1
  13. Dave, I once purchased a similar blade in original type3 mounts, very reasonably priced as well. When I got it home I found a Chinese blade fitted to the WW2 mounts. It now resides under my bed in the event of unwelcome guests, and obviously not with my gunto collection. A worry to me on your outfit (other than the blade) is the mix of fittings which it was not be originally fitted with. This shows some fiddling after war. I am in agreement with David Flynn, who I know has great experience with Gendai/Showa blades.   

    You have asked forum members for help, and you have received information that you probably didn't want to hear, but that is the nature of this "free" advice. Looking through previous topics, nothing generates more discussion than blades of "questionable" origin.  

     

    Neil thank you.

     

    This is precisely the beauty and objective of the NMB. No offense taken in any way. Thank you all!

     

    Dave

  14. Would or could a togi be fooled ??

     

    When board members such as yourselves, who have handled and viewed perhaps hundreds if not thousands of Japanese swords, it's a good idea to listen to what's being said...

     

    However one thing I can say with certainty if it is Chinese made, modern...it ain't.

     

    The question I have is...Were there swords made in China using Manchurian Steel associated with the Mantetsu group in the 1930's (pre-Koa Isshin.)

     

    Dave

  15. Would a Togishi in Japan have experience with modern Chinese swords is an interesting question.

     

    Gentlemen,

     

    I have to say I'm bit surprised at the reaction generated by this sword. The story in my opening post occurred just the way I said it did.

     

    I showed the sword to many sword dealers at the August, 2012 San Francisco sword show, many of which some of you may know. Not one suggested it blade was a modern Chinese copy. However, some were a bit confused with the Nakago, as I have also been. Yasurime, not impressive, Mumei, etc..

    You would think a modern Chinese copy would have some goofy looking kanji characters...

     

    The Togishi was not fooled, however, I felt he was not particularly impressed either. As I mentioned earlier, I was surprised by him suggesting Mantetsu. The only two words I recognized were Mantetsu, when he was explaining his assessment to Mr. Hughes, and the word Showato as he was speaking in Japanese to another gentleman. When I heard the word Showato,  I asked Mr. Hughes if the Togishi was referring to a low quaility constructed blade.

    He said the Togishi was just refering to the Era.

     

    As Dave R. stated earlier and what seems to make at least some sense, is Mr. Ikeda felt for whatever reason, the sword was made with some sort of Manchurian steel and used the word Mantetsu. This is basically what Mr. Hughes explained to me. I really don't know what more to say...

     

    The sword was found ( as I was told) on one of the Pacific Islands by a young Marine truck driver delivering supplies to the front line. He brought it home and it was wrapped in a blanket left in the rafters on a garage for many years..

     

    All opinions are welcome and appreciated, and I think the wise words of Shamsy explain these odd Showa era swords the best by saying, "The only certainty is uncertainty."

     

    Dave

    • Like 1
  16. I doubt very much that the Japanese togoshi used any acid on the window polish, though I look forward to a confirmation from Dave that no acid treatment was used later.

      What I took away from this is that it has a "window polish", as in, not the full blade. I have in fact seen something similar at one of the Northern To-Ken Society UK meetings, and if I remember rightly it had the same sort of  issue with the hamon. 

     

    Dave R.  There was no acid usage by the Togishi to my knowledge, and trust me, I wasn't about to apply anything afterwards to a newly opened window...

     

    The photos don't really do the polished area justice, its actually quite stunning with the sword in hand, there where many Sword show participants after the window was completed whom commented on how attractive the hada was...

     

    The super close up photo does make the hada look very strange, but wanted to post it to show the way the grain appeared, the color in the photo is "off " for some reason.

     

    Thanks again,

     

    Dave M.

    • Like 1
  17. Railway steel!

     

       Mantetsu was primarily a Railway Company, Minamimanshū Tetsudō Kabushikigaisha; Nánmǎnzhōu Tiědào Zhūshìhuìshè,  which then expanded into all sorts of other activities. (Mantetsu also had a presence in Japan, not just in Manchuria and Korea.)

     

       Back in the day (Fuller and Gregory)  it was assumed that Mantetsu swords were in fact made out of old rail track, whereas we now know a lot more about them, especially the Koa-Isshin blades. I think our Togoshi was possibly just meaning that he thought it was rail track steel, Mantetsu would be the maker that would then spring to mind.

     

     This would also account for it being a very hard steel, with a grain, but also not worth signing at the time. A Seki special. Btw, it should be one hell of a cutter, being a high carbon manganese steel

     

    Thank You Dave...Your explanation makes perfect sense, and yes I'm sure it would be a excellent cutter.

     

    Thanks again,

     

    Dave

  18. Sorry, but I'm not buying the Mantetsu attribution. Showa yes. Made by adding foreign steel..yes.

    But Mantetsu? Nope...not imho, sorry.

    I think sometimes Westerners have more experience with Showato and Gunto than many in Japan. Just my opinion of course.

     

    Brian, Honestly, I was stunned also by the Mantetsu attribution. But my understanding at the time was it was not a Koa Isshin related sword, but simply a blade using Mantetsu steel with traditional forging methods. 

     

    Stephen, I know, the sword looks pretty weird, but seriously, definitely not modern Chinese..

     

    Dave

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