Brian

I'm fascinated, and quite literally captivated by this tsuba. I really look forward to the comments. The nakago ana seems very deliberate, and I would think that the sword would have been quite unusual. Something crossed between a naginata naoshi and a..? Love the depiction of the horses! Brian

Good to know you're out there Pete. Use that ruler anytime you have a point to throw in Beat some sense into us! Brian

As for leaving out some names...yes indeed. I am battling bronchitis that is verging on pneumonia the past 4 days. So I have an excuse. I will forget a lot of things the next few days and say things that don't make sense. Please excuse me until I learn how to breathe again Guido was very specific in saying that he doesn't expect to erradicate all talk of mediocre tsuba. We all know they are out there, and will be posted about. The intention is not to change anything more than just encouraging more posting and conversation about good items to offset the mediocre items that will of course come up frequently, and realise that not everything is a masterpiece. As I was once told...sometime a lump of iron that is tsuba shaped is just that....a lump of tsuba-shaped iron :D Oh...and good quality isn't rare at all. You just have to want to see it. You don't have to buy it to learn from it As for the comments about beauty in art being subjective, do you really want to go there? :D That could lead to another 10 pages of discussion that always lead to bickering :lol: Brian

Guys, I hope those reading this don't see it as pointing to anyone in particular, or any particular post. It is all general discussion about collecting tsuba, and stems from many discussions off the forum that have happened over a long time. I am sure we all do it, and it just serves as a reminder that we all have different tastes, but the approach to collecting should be similar. I have said before that many of us who don't know the others personally might not catch the subtle humor in statements. I am confident that nothing posted has been intended as rude. Just an attempt to get us on track and get us up to a better level of tosogu discussion, which is where we all want to be. This is, and has been, an interesting discussion, and debate shouldn't make anyone feel put into a corner. It is of course very difficult to make any point without some feeling like it was directed only at them. All I can say to that is get over it :D There are indeed many tsuba posted here and on other forums that have little to no artistic merits. Some are just generic items, others mass produced or just lacking any real art. Just because it is old, does not make it a collectors item. The statements about seeing things in them is just a hint at that. The guys here who specialise in iron tsuba will be able to confirm and write a lot about the fact that not every iron piece is a masterpiece. There are subtleties that you need to learn to identify and look out for. A plain old burned and pitted tosho tsuba is not in the same league as a Kaneie or Nobuie. Recognising what makes them special is what we are focusing on. The same applies to kinko works, where there are a lot of mass produced ones and some really masterful ones. We are all allowed opinions, and I don't see anyone trying to prevent that. I just see gentle steering away from too much discussion about the mediocre items, and more debate and discussion about the good pieces. If you post them, they will come... (right Martin, Doc L, Rich, Henry, Steve, Richard etc? ) Let's all chill a bit and not take things too personally, and have some educational fun at the same time. Brian

I'm also in for one if someone wants to arrange a group buy? (Signed or not) If I chat to the other collectors here, I could probably take 3 or 4. How easy is it to order from the museum..do they just take c/c directly and ship from there? Btw Mr Trotter, It's indeed very good to have you here. You are in good company. We have at least one other retired museum curator (Ian B. from the UK) and members of every age group with all levels of knowledge. Looking forward to hearing more about your experiences and I think you will find that good Gendaito are well regarded here. Regards, Brian

Sorry for the off topic, but just have to ask if you are the same George Trotter who authored the Western Australian Museum swords and fittings book? If so..a pleasure to have you on board. (If not..still a pleasure to have you here :D ) Brian

Thanks for that Piers. (Do I get called "uncle Brian" from now on? ) When you do get a chance to add the pics, I'll add it as an article to the upcoming FAQ section too. Yes..still working on it, but with Japan coming up and work so hectic I doubt I will finish it until after I get back. For those familiar with old flintlocks and percussion pieces, there are a lot of similarities. All you have to remember is to NOT follow the old gunsmithing saying of: "when in doubt...use a hammer. The bigger the doubt...the bigger the hammer" (NOTE:- I said don't follow that advice) I assume patina in non-exposed places is treated the same way as a nakago, with the "less is more" approach to cleaning. Brian

George, A while ago, for personal reasons, Rich removed the contact features from his page. However he does browse the NMB regularly, so if you leave your details here I am pretty sure he will see this thread and get hold of you asap. Regards, Brian

Or even better....sell or trade that evil Republican gun to me, where it will have a really good home Brian

To me it looks like the ana has been altered a few times in its life to mate up with a different remounting project. Opened up for a larger nakago, then peened closed for a smaller one later. At some stage the peening from one side caused the slight offset. Doesn't detract too much from the tsuba in my eyes though. Like Martin, I also noticed the intricate work on the branches and blossoms, and the nanako is well done. Have seen it in linear style quite often, although concentric is more common. I like this tsuba Brian

Milt, That second one is quite bizarre. The base tsuba itself looks quite good and well done, but the gold work looks almost cartoonish? Very odd to my novice eyes. Brian

Very interesting point Jacques Yes, http://www.nihonto.com/abtartkunihiro.html does say: Given Kunihiro's legendary horimono, and the fact that both smiths knew each other, this is a strong possibility. Brian

All, I was emailed this by the auction house. Have never heard of them, so only posting what they sent me and asked me to pass on. Pics are typical online and basic. Maybe for anyone who is in the area. Brian

Well..I'm not fluent in Japanese..but since "Ai" can mean love... Is he practicing the "way of love" Brian

Stefan, The board's official stance is to discourage using real and antique blades for sporting use. Hence the ..."dedicated to the study and preservation..." Any repeated use of a Nihonto for Iaido will have a detrimental effect on the sword over time. Whether it be to the polish, or damage from bumps or handling..it certainly can't improve the condition. I would therefore suggest that if you do need to use a traditional sword, then you commission one from a modern smith to your own specifications. It won't be cheap, but it will be the correct size, weight and style for you. Brian

Thanks for a good exercise Guido. I don't think I would have gotten to Daido easily, but I should have been paying closer attention to the Mino characteristics and the hataraki. Harder without a nakago as in real kantei :D Beautiful sword in every sense. I find Ford's observation very interesting too. Brian

I'm with Pete on this one. Haynes lists 2 Shunsans, one ca. 1800-1850, and one 1700-1725. The Kozan's listed signed differently. Original or not, this seems to be the reading for these kanji on fittings. Brian

Very true Carlo. If Bob Benson says it has lost its kissaki and is saiha, and the shinsa says it is saiha and has lost its kissaki, you have to wonder who you can turn to next, or do you go down in experience levels until someone tells you what you want to hear? I'm pretty sure an idea of age was given there too..so what more info can he get? Brian

Don't give the answer yet..let's at least give it the weekend so that the business types can hit the books. I want to look closer at it too. Thanks Guido. Brian

Ken, Love that papered tsuba! Is that all ito sukashi? Nice work. I'll keep a lookout at the DTI for you. Brian

Not at all. There are juyo swords with hagire. A fatal flaw doesn't make a sword not a good one, just a damaged one. Let's say there is a Sadamune or a Shinkai with a hagire through battle use. Still a good (great) sword, just one with a hagire. I don't think the 2 are always mutually exclusive. Brian

When I was looking at this earlier, the boshji and hamon were saying Mishina school to me, but Sugata and age sure is hard to judge without the nakago (like formal kantei) and I was also trying to judge if it is suraige or ubu. Horimono make me also think maybe a slight bit machi okuri like Ted offered. Without the start of the hamon, hard to see, but I think I can see a shinto yakidashi there, which also points me to a Shinto. But having a sugata that could be Nambokucho, Shinshinto or Momoyama doesn't help a lot in dating it It looks too fresh to be Nambokucho, so I am leaning towards Momoyama. Lots of boshi..almost ichimai. Is that mura-nie that we are seeing in the close-up? If I had to bid right now, I'd go with Horikawa Kunihiro. Brian

Paranoia must be the first sign of ageing Sometimes when it seems like few ppl have a clue..then that is exactly what is happening I don't know where to go yet with this one (as I did with the tanto) so I don't think it is educational to take a wild guess until I am able to hit the books and at least do more than throw darts at the kantei dartboard Keep it running for a bit, I am sure many of us are still doing some research. Brian

Hi Dyami, Yes, you are correct that this forum deals only in genuine and collectible Japanese swords and related items. Modern copies are out of the scope of our discussions unfortunately. I think for what you are looking for, Bugei forums (http://www.swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/) might be of some help as they do discuss the modern swords. Use of any genuine (or fake even) Japanese sword for defence, casts the art objects that we collect in a bad light, and is therefore not promoted, discussed or entertained here. We have already seen a backlash in the UK over this, so that subject is not allowed here, I hope you understand. I suggest checking out our "for sale" section here often as sometimes something genuine comes up in your price range. However if you do purchase a genuine antique sword, please respect it enough to not use it for any other purposes besides study and appreciation. Regards, Brian

Here is the link: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=91520 Interesting looking nakago, although it looks a bit young to be the Iyetoki. Also has had what looks to be a proper polish, so you would think that at some stage someone would have found out what it was. However I wish him luck, would be a great find. Brian