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Generally, when this happens it's because in that particular line of smiths, there's a bunch of them who are more or less indistinguishable, or have enough overlap in style, skill and/or working period that it becomes difficult to separate the generations, or alternatively that the blade in question has enough features to qualify for more than one generation of that smith. The bigger the skill/quality gap between the "best" smith of that line and the "worst" smith of that line, the more likely it is that they will disambiguate, either with a generation or an approximate time period. As an example, consider Magoroku Kanemoto, the second of the Kanemoto line. He is by far the highest rated Kanemoto; his predecessor is also quite well-thought of, if not quite up to the standard of Magoroku, while the various other Kanemotos that succeeded them are a mishmash of quality with none really standing out. In this case, you're likely to see the one of the following attributions: "Kanemoto (first gen)" - the first Kanemoto. Not up to the legendary standards of Magoroku, but still quite far above the rest "Kanemoto (Magoroku)" or "Kanemoto (second gen)" - the one, the only, the big name "Kanemoto" - one of the other ones, we might have our suspicions but we're not exactly sure which one Sometimes they will add a bit more detail to the last category by attributing to "Kanemoto (Momoyama)" which might narrow it to a particular subset of those smiths within that time period, or "Kanemoto (later gen)," meaning essentially "it could be any of them other than the big two". Rather than asking "What did they mean when they said this", it's sometimes instructive to consider what they didn't say, and then try to figure out why. On occasion this can be a very diplomatic hint at the state of the blade - e.g. "Kanemoto" could also mean "this is by a smith of the Kanemoto lineage but the current polish means we can't tell you any more than that" or "the blade is too tired for us to go out on a limb because who knows what it really looked like with all the meat on its bones and the kissaki not having been reshaped".

Jaco, if ever you should happen to pick up something Japanese, please refrain from cleaning, grinding, or polishing! The patina is often a hint to age and value, so NEVER touch it!

It would seem the member who started this thread, has now requested for his account to be deleted. Perhaps, had he received the information requested here in a more timely manor, he would have given NMB the distinguished honor of providing him with further free translations as it has in the past, representing the bulk of his participation.

swords in the exhibition Tachi — Property of Captain/Pilot Ōhori Mamoru, forged by Kanenobu (Nōshū-jū). Mounting: shin-guntō Type 98. Katana — Property of Lieutenant General Nakamura Aketō, forged by Shizumasa. Mounting: shin-guntō Type 98 with general’s tassel. Katana — Presumably belonging to Major General Shimura Fumio, Vice Chief of Staff of the 7th Army. Blade: ō-suriage, Aoe school (Nanbokuchō period). Mounting: shin-guntō Type 98 with general’s tassel. Wakizashi — Kyū-guntō Model 1906 (Japanese police), worn by a keibu (police lieutenant). Blade: hira-zukuri, Mino workmanship from the early shintō period (ca. 1615). Wakizashi — Kyū-guntō Model 19. Blade: kotō period (pre-1596). Hiriyō-mon in silver on the tsuka. Katana — Kyū-guntō Model 19. Blade signed Kashū Komatsu jū Kanemaki, dated 1642. Tassel indicates the rank of lieutenant or captain. The tsuka bears a mon of two crossed feathers (Abe family). Equipped with a “surrender tag” inscribed: Saikai-mura; Minami Kōhachirō. Nagamaki-naoshi — Kyū-guntō Model 19. Blade from the late 14th century, forged by a smith of the Sōden-Bizen school. The signature has been lost due to ō-suriage. Katana — Signed Yasutsugu, made with namban-tetsu, inscribed Bushū Edo. Featuring the Aoi-mon of the Tokugawa and the Gosan-kiri-mon on the tsuka. Mounting: cavalry kyū-guntō Model 19 for field-grade officers. Tachi — Yasunori kinsaku (Kenzō Kotani), dated August 1937. Mounting: shin-guntō Model 94 with red-brown tassel for field-grade officers. Tachi — Yasuhiro, dated June 1934. Mounting: shin-guntō Model 94 with red-brown tassel for field-grade officers. Katana — Yamato daijō Fujiwara Masanori (Keichō period, 1596–1615). Mounting: itomaki no tachi with Gosan-kiri-mon. Tantō — Yasumitsu, dated October 1935, with original wooden presentation box. Inscription: “Made by Yasumitsu” and “Received by Nihontō Tanren Kai.” Interior dated April 1936. Tantō — Yasuaki kin saku. Mounting: shirasaya. Tantō — Yasutoku saku, dated March 1936. Mounting: shirasaya. Katana — Yasutoku Kajiyama kin saku, dated 1939. Mounting: shirasaya. Tachi — Yasuhiro Miyaguchi, dated July 1937. Mounting: shirasaya, with sayagaki by Tanobe Michihiro. Tachi — Takenori (Kenzō Kotani), signed Geishū-jū Takenori and dated Shōwa 18 (1943). Mounting: shirasaya. Tachi — Yasumitsu (Ikeda), dated September 1937. Mounting: shin-guntō Model 94 with general’s tassel. Mokko-mon on the tsuka. Tachi — Yasuyoshi, dated April 1943. Mounting: shin-guntō Model 94 with red-brown tassel for field-grade officers. Kuruma-mon on the tsuka. Katana — Shin-shintō, mumei, with horimono. Mounting: kai-guntō Type 94. Katana — Mumei. Mounting: kai-guntō Type 94. Feature: Ikeda-mon on the menuki and tsuka. Katana — Ikkanshi Tadatsuna. Mounting: naval Type 1883. Maru ni Jigami-mon on the tsuka.

Beautiful polish by Moses. I ve never used him but I ve always admired his work. I am a big time lover of negare and any type of O hada and this is brought out in spectacular fashion here. It is the workmanship that confirms the skill of the artisan. Not the background of his training.

Up to you, but I wouldn't post your number publicly. If it were me, I'd edit and say pm you for your contact details

Sorry for the bad quality. But this was in 2018. Just a reason to visit the Metropolitan Museum.

Hello to all. Just joined the site and am looking forward to learning more about Japanese military edged weapons.

That’s highly specialized research…! （As I’m sure you are already aware, Gifu was also affected by air raids, so when you search for information from that period, you often find only references to documents having been destroyed.） I found the 1935 and 1939 commercial directories (lists compiling information on commercial and industrial businesses商工名鑑). (I can see the characters for “sword(s)刀剣” , but I am not sure whether this refers to a blacksmith’s workshop or a retail shop.）You may have already found this information, but I hope it will be helpful. 「刀劍　（古物）　美浪町Minami chō 尾關憲司OzekiKenji」 Town Minami chō 美浪町corresponds to the present-day Town Onami chō御浪町, and the numbers refer to telephone numbers. National Diet Library Digital Collection 商工名鑑 (Shōwa 10) National Diet Library Digital Collection 商工名鑑 (Shōwa 14)　　 I hope your research progresses well.

This is a great place to start, welcome to the forum! A library will be absolutely required, and a good book to start with is this one: The other thing that I would suggest, is look in the Nihonto info section at the top of this page here under the forum banner, there is a glossary there and I would suggest trying to learn the various terms used in relation to nihonto, at least try and learn as many as you can, they can easily be cross referenced with the above book. this will make the subject a bit more accessible and easier to understand, as there is a whole vocabulary of terms that are used when talking about Japanese blades. Perhaps try and learn a few different terms each day. Have fun with this absolutely fascinating hobby!

Hi @lewis That Masanobu is very nice indeed. Im just very partial to Kongo Hyoe as a collector and ubu/signed is definitely a big plus since I have a suriage Ko Kongo Hyoe and a suriage signed Moritaka. I will most definitely confirm the TH certificate and other minor detail with Asahi Token

Nevertheless they are not netsuke nor Japanese in all probability.

Definitely not netsuke. Just decorative items. If real ivory they don't appear to have much age based on the lack of patination.

・Hōbei / Hōhei (奉幣) refers to the act of offering heihaku to the deities. ・Heihaku (幣帛) is a collective term in Shinto ritual practice for offerings presented before the deities, excluding shinsen (神饌)—that is, food offerings such as rice and sake. It includes items such as cloth, paper, and jewels. From 1875 onward, kinpei (金幣)—monetary offerings wrapped in paper—were also included as part of heihaku. ↓Text is in Japanese only.There is a photograph of textile offerings used as heihaku幣帛. 佐川記念神道博物館　Sagawa Memorial Museum of Shintō and Japanese Culture, Kōgakkan University.

The following is information about the term. ・Kampeisha (官幣社) and Kokuheisha (国幣社)→ These are the two major categories of ‘kansha官社’ , which indicated the ranking of Shinto shrines under the Modern Shrine Ranking System that lasted from the Meiji period until the prewar era. ・Kansha (官社) refers to shrines that received offerings from the state during the Kinensai (祈年祭) and Niinamesai (新嘗祭) festivals.These shrines were divided into Kampeisha (官幣社) and Kokuheisha (国幣社). The modern shrine ranking system was historically influenced by earlier state-controlled classifications, and was organized into major, medium, and minor ranks within each category（大・中・小).Promotions within this hierarchical system were also carried out. ・官幣社（Kampeisha ）：the shrine that receives ritual offerings (heihaku幣帛) from the central government (the Jingikan神祇官,the government office responsible for Shinto affairs under the imperial court) ・国幣社（Kokuheisha）：the shrine that receives ritual offerings (heihaku) from provincial authorities (kokushi国司, and later prefectural governments) ↓The text is in Japanese only, but there is a clear diagram. Please refer to section 3: Modern shrine ranking system (after the Meiji Restoration)近代社格制度 （明治維新以降）. 神社研究所Jinja-lab

（This is an additional note.） “升格　為　国幣小社”= It was promoted to the minor rank of Kokuheisha. Is this perhaps the shrine you are referring to?→伊奈波inaba神社Shrine （In Meiji 6 (1873), it was ranked as a prefectural shrine, and in 1939 (Shōwa 14), It was elevated to the rank of a kokuhei shōsha） It is located at the foot of Gifu Castle 岐阜城 and is quite close to Seki関. wiki.inaba.shrine(Gifu) the Inaba shrine’s official website

I also came across a pair of trousers like this. It is said to be a pair of trousers made by repurposing an army wool overcoat from the 1940s–50s (likely postwar). In this case, it is possible that it was created independently by a private individual, so I thought it might be possible that such unexplained markings were added…（This is all purely speculative. ）

(I will keep notes only of what I have imagined.) I considered that it might perhaps also be a memo containing sewing instructions. 上 ue :meaning [↑]. Would it mean something like this: ‘Please place the fabric on this side (the left edge) over the fabric on the right edge’? I am afraid I do not understand the second line. I suspect that technical terms may sometimes be written in an abbreviated form. However, would it, in the first place, be customary to write text on a military uniform in this manner? From a brief look into the matter,It appears that the markings on military uniforms were generally based on a standardized format, such as the manufacturer’s name.（I imagine that those here may be more knowledgeable about this point.）

Just passing through but I had to comment on this. 😳 An infrequent enquirer who is both impatient and petulant - about a pair of PANTS for crying out loud. What part of 'Nihonto' doesn't he get, exactly? @Samurai Presumably, you wield a daisho of long-johns and briefs?

It should be related to the shrine's receiving an official ranking. Shintō shrines had a kind of ranking system, with the shrines most closely connected to the Imperial family receiving the rank of "Imperial Shrine", and other major shrines receiving various "National Shrine" rankings. The phrase you posted means something like "appointed National Shrine 3rd Rank" (see Wikipedia for a list of such designated shrines). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_system_of_ranked_Shinto_shrines#Imperial_shrines,_3rd_rank

@Samurai Maybe this will help you…. The Evolution of Army Uniform Marking Regulations (1886-1945) Or not…. I see that you have given up on the forum and requested that admins delete your account because no one rushed to translate the size information on a pair of pants. By the way, your pictures were not very clear to begin with…

Great show and thanks for organizing it! I have not been able to participate for two years and the experience was exhilarating. I hope everyone in the field gets to enjoy a show like this at least once.

I'm with Brian You will start getting many propositions from bots.

Bruce: In the article I referenced, the authors were examining very early tsuka (they believe from 1934ish) and thought this was an early form of construction. John C.

The Imperial Ordinance No. 775 can be accessed via JACAR. The citation is at the bottom of the webpage and can be cut and pasted. Good luck with your scholarly studies. 御署名原本・昭和十四年・勅令第七七五号・海軍工廠令中改正

Your contribution is amazing! This should help a lot. Yes, the research is not only specialized but also difficult without access to records in Japan (I know some folks use JACAR, however I don't speak Japanese). I have a working theory about some smiths and their location so I'm working backwards, if you will, by trying to find the location of forges -> then trying to find lists of smiths for those forges -> then looking for specific smiths on those lists. I assume it really won't be possible to do that but it keeps me off the streets, as we say. Thank you again for your time and contribution, Hiro. John C.

Just got back from vacation and pulled out Art & Sword 8. There is about 60 pages on the Sengo School and Masazane is prominently profiled in that article. I would reach out to Grey Doffin as I would almost guarantee he has a copy for a very fair price.

Hi @Sukaira That one was on the market for a little while but it was for an outrageous price of around $10,000 usd. I guess someone found the package was worth it but I cant wrap my head around spending that much on a late muromachi suriage/mumei Kongo Hyoe despite it being my favorite school. Beautiful jigane tho !

Takada ju Yukihisa. Shinto Takada school.

Get some oil on it fast. Oil and wipe....continue for a few days. You need to stop that rust. Nothing abrasive. To me, appears to be quite an early sword mounted for the war, and one that is going to need some closer inspection as it appears it may have some potential. But condition is very poor. Possibly still saveable though with professional work. You need someone to look at it in hand.

Wow, Hiro! Thank you very kindly for the thorough explanation. And yes, this is in reference to the Inaba Shrine. I am researching whether or not there was a WW2 forge associated with Inaba shrine or possibly on Inabagawa. The 1939 date peaked my interest, hence the attempt at a Google translation. John C.

Forgot to answer fully…age…likely last 20 years, origin likely africa, value (artistic or monetary) zero. Sorry but these are far worse than even the modern Chinese fakes.

I had a great show. I took a few photos of me packing up and unpacking from the show. I sold two tsuba and reduced my collection of Japanese sword fittings by -1. Thanks to @Mark and family for creating such a positive and welcoming atmosphere at the Chicago show. My wife Tamaki-san wants to join me the next time I go to the show.

Dear Luba. Welcome to NMB! As you probably already know this is a lifetime pursuit in terms of learning and understanding so be prepared for some serious addiction. Some of the information you are looking for can be found under the FAQ system tab at the top of the page, including suggested reading. You might also spend some time looking at the Nihonto info tab and the Downloads tab, a lot to get your teeth into. I think most people would suggest that looking at bad swords or fakes hurts the eyes but to be able to distinguish fake from real go to Browse and scroll down, there is a section devoted to fake swords. To see good swords look to the dealer section or you might try NihontoWatch which you will find at the top of this General Discussion page. Feel free to ask questions, there is a huge ammount of hard won wisdom at your disposal here. Enjoy! All the best.

This one isn't bad for the price: https://world-seiyudo.com/product/ska-030126/ - wide with good length and curvature

Alex, here are some more quotes about Mr. Mosle'. Henry Joly is quoted as saying, "Mosle was fortunate beyond all but two or three Europeans in securing the friendly help of Japanese collectors and experts to impart the personal knowledge necessary to weed the master’s own works from the productions of pupils, followers and imitators." “Bashford Dean (Honorary Curator of Arms and Armor at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC) writes in 1910 about this collection: “It contains objects which will never again be secured by a Japanese collector, and the actual value of it, of course, cannot be estimated in money. The set of your Goto objects alone, would be a collection which give class to any museum, Japanese or foreign”.” “(100 Selected Tsuba from European Public Collections)” “Mosle’ moves to the United States without any political pressure in 1935. He will die there in 1946 having lived like a prince. His collection will be sold by Parke-Bernet on April 22, 1948. The catalog (5 X 8”) had 53 pages!” “(100 Selected Tsuba from European Public Collections)” In 2004, the New York Times published "...Alexander G. Moslé, a German businessman who worked in Japan from 1884 to 1907. As the representative of the Gruson Company, a subsidiary of Krupp Steel, Moslé was able to persuade the Japanese government to switch from French to German arms just as Japan was asserting itself as a military power. (The first Sino-Japanese War was in 1894-95 and the Russo-Japanese War in 1904-05. ) The arms trade made Moslé wealthy; at one point he had 2249 Japanese swords, armor, more than 1600 sword fittings, Japanese paintings, prints, sculptures, ceramics, lacquer and textiles. Moslé retired in 1907 and returned to Germany, working with scholars and dealers to learn more about his collection. In 1909 he exhibited it at the Königliches Kunstgewerbe Museum in Berlin. It was published in two catalogs in 1914, which are still considered important reference works..." Two portfolio cases. Portfolio 1: Title page, Introduction and catalogue, followed by Plates 1-102. Portfolio 2: Plates 103-204. Address of Mr. Mosle: 5 East 66th St., New York City, N.Y. There are some more Mosle' details in this article. https://shibuiswords.com/joshuHaynes.htm

Hi Karu, It looks like you may need to become a member: https://nihontoclub.com

Conway, you never cease to amaze me! Good call. It's a Masanori, thought for a second it was Mitsunobu. Never mind. But great ID work on the saka. Ed, thanks for the mune number! The chevorns seem to be polisher marks, but I've never seen any like that for sure.

梵鐘・仏像・銅像・寺院仏具の　老子製作所 | 梵鐘(釣鐘)・寺院仏具・仏像・銅像の老子製作所は、伝統工芸高岡銅器と共に 鐘の専門メーカーとして、寺院仏具金物や洋鐘、カリヨン、モニュメント等の鋳物製品を製造しています Although Lao Tsu or Laozu is spelt like this, the Buddhist manufacturer of bronze bells is called "Oigo" (Old Child) 老子 with these characters, so presumably that is how they would like it to be read. Their blurb says that they made/make objects in the spirit of Laotsu. 老子青銅作品 - 検索

Thanks for your articles Alexander . The thought that items that I now own have passed through the hands of previous collectors ,who have also treasured them , has always interested me . One minor correction. In your article on Walter Behrens you perpetuate the myth that Henri Joly was Belgian . He was born on the 24th of Feb 1878 at Chartres France . His 1901 and 1911 census entries confim that he was French . The attached tsuba is one of two I have that were once part of Henri Joly's collection .

It was and is always a great show, thanks to Mark and his family, who infuse it with the DNA of Midwestern welcoming kindness. And many do come just to see people as well as have look see and don't get anything. Not me. I bought four tsuba this time around but no blades. That said sales seemed to be great and there were many fine pieces to be had, from Juyo masterworks to some promising out of the woodwork pieces at prices even mere mortals could afford. Truly, a great time was had by all. Thanks, Mark!

Thank you from the pictures Mark. I always get quite comfy vibe about the US shows, they would seem like cool places to hang out even without intending to get anything.

I have officially planned my trip! Coast to coast! Looking forward to meeting some of the east coast folks. All the best, -Sam

Beautiful sword. Bungo blades from that era are true warrior blades. I'm sorry, but seeing a blade lying on the ground always breaks my heart.

Hi members, I am open for fair offers for this nice sword, so fell free. Best Sebastian