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Possibly Kanbun Shinto. Grey

Found this at a militaria show for a great price, and decided to add it to my collection. I know a little bit about these and have read all the ohmura material. Saya number does not match. Can anyone put a date on it based on the stamps and serial number? Otherwise mostly just show and tell! Enjoy! Neat sword. -Sam

Think this could easily be Ainu. In fact, based on your link https://www.proantic.com/en/994063-rare-japanese-ainu-sword.html I think it is highly likely.

Dominique, a problem is that the sword and metal parts seem to have been 'cleaned'. Besides many other factors, patina is important for an age guess. Even good photos do not allow a precise judgement, so all comments will have to remain a bit vague. The best way would be to find an expert - de préférence an NMB member - and show him your sword in hand.

Bro please remove your localization from pics link. Im feeling disturbed. And add pics of mei.

One word of warning. There is no perfect blade, as everyone knows. You seem to be asking for people to point out stuff you cannot see, in advance. But if someone actually does that, you then seem to go off the boil, as with your first candidate above and BBB's subsequent comments. If you show a blade to people, ten people will tell you ten different things. If the blade is really good, and cheap at the price, someone may step in and buy it! In order to rise above small defects, you may decide to spend more and more, until you reach another fiscal limit, only to have another flaw or drawback pointed out by some higher authority later. Some collectors have several swords, each with imperfections of some kind, but each strong in certain other points, a series of compromises...(?). Hoping you can find a nice balanced medium!

Little Sori was popular during Kanbun Shinto, and later Shin Shinto.

This Nobuhide (信秀) seems to be a son of Horii Toshihide (堀井俊秀) who was a swordsmith of Japan Steel Works, Muroran Plant (日本製鋼所室蘭製作所). The symbol of the company

Dear Dee. I am sorry that answers have not been forthcoming, perhaps at the least this post will stimulate others who know much more than I but here are a scant few references for you. In 'A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armour in All Countries and in All Times', by George Cameron Stone,(Universally known as Stone's glossary for obvious reasons!), one Japanese example is listed under 'muzzle', p460. In, 'Arms and Armour of the Samurai', Bottomley and Hopson. 1988, two are illustrated on p10 and attributed to the Kyoto Arashiyama Museum, referencing that catalogue they seem to be the only two in the museum. I understand that the Arashiyama collection was disposed of some years ago. One other example features in the catalogue of the Dai Token Ichi annual exhibition catalogue for 2006. illustrated on page 125. On the whole they seem to be rather rare survivors. I hope this information is of some use to you. To add, I think bamen may mislead your search as this usually refers to face armour for a horse, the equivalent of European chanfron. Laurent suggests Kuchikago, (and quotes the Bottomley and Hopson reference). All the best.

In Japanese art there is a tradition of "utsushi" which translates as homage or emulation at its basic level. Popular designs were done over and over again but generally not as direct copies but as the new artists interpretation of the original design - at least in the best case senario. Copies have been made, some as "practice" by students/apprentices others as outright forgeries aimed at deceit. Yes there are also cast copies made in large numbers but these would not be called utsushi as they do not celebrate the art and are more about making fast money. From what I have seen almost every school of tsuba artist has had followers who make utsushi of their school or other schools master works. I would not be surprised if on some rare occasions some buyers might put in a request for some change or enhancement, there are rare signatures where the maker has included "made to the order of ... " Some schools were almost production lines producing the same pattern over and over again just to keep up with demand Kinai school was well known for it.

Daruma Yamaoka Tesshu (山岡 鉄舟) was born in Edo June 10, 1836 and died July 19, 1888. The vast majority of his works were calligraphy from the Jubokudo lineage of Shodo established by Wang Hsi-chi (Wang Xizhi), a Chinese calligrapher of the 4th century. Yamaoka created a calligraphy manual based on the 154 Chinese characters of a poem – “The Eight Immortals of the Wine Cup” – by the Tang Dynasty poet Tu Fu (712 – 770 A.D.) that is still practiced by the Chosei Zen Rhode Island Zen Dojo in the US. This powerful depiction of Daruma, the patriarch of Japanese Zen Buddhism, is a rare subject matter for Yamaoka. The calligraphy is taken directly from a famous poem Xinxin Ming (心性铭) attributed to the great Chan master Jianzhi Sengcan (鉴智僧璨). The translation is "Directly pointing to the human heart/mind, seeing one’s true nature leads to Buddhahood [直指人心見性成佛]. Brushed by Yamaoka Tetsutaro, Senior Fourth Court Rank." The Chinese pronunciation is "Zhí zhǐ rén xīn jiàn xìng chéng fó." The origin of this line is the Platform Sutra of the 6th Patriarch of Chinese Chan (Zen) Buddhism who was named Dajian Huineng or Hui-neng (638-713). The scroll painting and calligraphy (kakejiku) comes in a fitted paulownia box on which has been brushed "Yamaoka Tesshu Buddhist Layman, Bodhidharuma" on the outer lid and "May 1990, Follower of Xuanzang (early and influential Chinese Buddhist Monk of the Tang Dynasty)" on the inner lid. This Zen painting with calligraphy dates to 1885 (3 years before Yamaoka's untimely death and well after his enlightenment experience at age 45, based on his seals and during a time when he was the personal bodyguard and advisor to the Meiji emperor. He played the central role in the bloodless surrender of Edo castle--one of the most important events in the Meiji Restoration of 1868. Fearing the loss of traditional Yamaoka was born Ono Tetsutaro. A samurai and master swordsman who founded the Ittō Shōden Mutō-ryū (一刀正伝無刀流) school of swordsmanship ("Sword of No-Sword). He was also a master calligrapher who is said to have completed 1 million works, and a recognized lay Rinzai Zen master who died in the seated meditation position at the age of 52 from gastric cancer. Aside from being a master of Ken-Zen-Sho (Sword-Zen-Calligraphy), he was renown for his love of drinking sake and sleeping. At 62.5 cm x 137 cm (excluding mount), this work is among the largest of his works.

I also agree Kanbun/Shinto.

Thanks Scogg. The drag thickness is 36mm and the scabbard throat is flat (versus having a lug). In my experience, the flat scabbard throat is more uncommon. You will learn more about why I asked these questions when you have a chance to read Nick's threads. As a general rule, the following blade and scabbard information is needed when reporting a Type 32. Blade Length (Version): 甲 Kō or 乙 Otsu. Serial Number: Sequential serial number starting at 1, stamped in Arabic numerals. Fullered: Yes or No. (FYI, all are fullered but I ask anyway.) Finish: White, Blued, Black oxide, Painted black, or ?. (They all started out as white.) Saya Serial Number: Original serial number, rematched SN, mismatch serial number, none, ?. Scabbard Throat: Extension lug, or Flat, or ?. Drag thickness: in millimeters. Finish: White, Blued, Black-oxide, Painted black, Chrome, Textered, or ?.

It is very likely that the sword is fatally damaged, the kissaki has been very crudely reshaped, the natural fukura (curvature of the kissaki) removed completely and most probably the boshi is gone at this point. I don't see any indication of a naginatanaoshi here, this appears to be a o-suriage mumei katana (Shinto or earlier) but with likely fatal issues due to the amateur reshaping of the kissaki combined with non-fatal forging flaws.

Also, the late Nick Komiya has some threads about the Type 32 Military Sword. How the Type 32 Sword was born & System Kaizen behind the Type 32 Gunto production of the 1930s

The early Otsu Type 32's were undated. Later on, a date was added above the arsenal symbol. The earliest dated 乙 [Otsu] I know of is serial number 66604, dated 明四〇 [1907]. Based upon the serial number of 63703, I would guess it was made sometime during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905. As Bruce already indicated, the "stamps' are final inspection marks. One of which seen is 田.

Likewise, as mentioned in your previous post I feel this is Ainu.

More examples of Ainu weapons, many with detailed descriptions and historical information: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/culture/ainu https://www.mandarinmansion.com/article/knives-and-swords-ainu

Until we see and know more, it’s totally fine in this section. Not everyone knows if what they have is a Nihonto or not before they post. It’s the nature of the forum All good here Thomas , Best of luck in your search for answers. -Sam

If you take the peg out does the hilt come off? If so image of tang? Its possible it could be a very poor condition Tanto blade in “home made” mounts. Cant be sure from these pics.

That's a nice one, Sam! Be careful with putting your finger in the leather loop. I have one that broke on me after doing it a few times. Some of the stamps can be dates, but I don't think yours are, just inspection marks. I could be wrong, though. Best to wait for @Kiipu, or one of the other guys that study these.

Yamato den = high shinogi

From an old Japanese book https://www.jauce.com/auction/w1188787484 Tsuba Oshigata Horii Nagaoka Akasaka Tsuba 5 volumes Approximately 800 drawings

Your suspicions are correct. Late Meiji period intended for the enthusiastic foreigners that were around at the time. It looks as if the tsuka and saya are clad in thin pressed sheets of a base metal which would have been brightly gilded/multipatinated at the time thereby giving an impression of some quality. The blades are often just plain unforged steel. I believe the metal used for the mounts is a pewter type alloy. Apologies for any disappointment.

One stamp near Tang end

No Stamps above the mei . I think it is now a Masakane handmade water tempered

FYI, from two sets of experiments done in the early 2000s with bladesmiths (published by Prof. Takuo Suzuki), there is little evidence that the "impurity" content (I mean atoms that are not interstitials, like carbon) actually changes with folding. Only the carbon content and the amount/shape/distribution/size of inclusions changes with the folding and forging process. About the effect of composition, it has a clear effect on oxidation, but I am not aware that it changes the colour of polished steel. Forging indeed will give you smaller grains, but then again, how the smith heats the blade prior to quenching will also change this grain size. There was a very nice study in Prof. Morito's team where they managed to show how different the grain size prior to quenching was with different smiths. Also, I thought a lot of the final aspect of the blade depended on the polisher. But here, I have virtually no knowledge. EDIT: All that to say that I think the carbon content, the smith, and the polisher have a larger effect on the final aspect of the blade than the other elements present in minute concentrations.

Unfortunately, I do not have additional photos. The ito wrap appears to have been painted in the style of a Type 3, and there are no visible traces of the カケス mark. It seems unlikely that it is from the same maker.

Nakago was cleaned recently, i.e. the rust inside characters is actually quite old. I am 80% for the signature being authentic. Probably 1670-1730, might be a lesser known generation in 1700s, it is often the case as sword market collapsed completely 1705-1710. Not a typical style for the school, but one of Edo period's attempts at something Rai-ish.

I have seen a few in my time and have one on a kodai Kanemoto katana in Shinguntou koshirae dated TAISHOU ROKUNEN (1917). If you put "polisher's mei" into the NMB search field for 'Everywhere' you will pull up a few threads. There have been a couple where the nagashi area is a mokume pattern Regards, BaZZa.

Thank you!!! Gosh darn it, I knew it! Because I think I remember hearing people say"Togiberi" in videos and in person, but when I want to confirm that, I couldn't for the life of me find any of those videos, while Google search only showed 研ぎ減らす/Togiherasu on Kotobank. Then I wanted to ask someone, but this is such a trivial question, so I was worried about bringing Meiwaku to the people I asked. This really helped my OCD! I can't thank you enough, Tsuji san! ♡♡

Hi! Can we have a look at the signature? This could be a genuine Shinshinto Jumyo. Sugata looks Kanbun, but Kitae is Shinshinto-like, so it would help if we had specific data on this sword, if this is notably long, broad and thick, then it is more likely a Shinshinto.

Hi! The first picture is where I think the Shingane is exposed. The second picture is where I think Tsukare-Utsuri(Utsuri of a tired blade) is showing. The other side shows a much better state of Kitae, with much less Oomoyo and Hada-Tachi places or Tsukare-Utsuri-like places, almost just regular Utsuri along the Shinogi, which is the reason I believe Togi-Heri caused what we see in both pictures, and it's not what this sword looked like originally. and I will have to reserve my opinions on Tsuruta san's for-sell sword descriptions, especially on Kitae or the state of Togi-Heri, for polite reasons.

And the simple Manjū, plus the Satsuma lady. If she is a netsuke, the strings would have been wound around her body, as with the natural curves of hyotan gourd netsuke etc., but, as with some Netsuke, she can also stand up okimono-like! So there we have a few examples. Ceramic Netsuke will often break if dropped, which may account for their relatively rarity. I tend to think of them as an interesting off-shoot of mainline Netsuke. What do you think? Satsuma peasant lady with giant beet, side view front view

Here is the ceramic or pottery chestnut. The reverse with typical Himotōshi holes forming bridge. Recent antiques fair 灰皿 haizara find And reverse

This is not cast, and your "discrepancies" are nothing to do with casting. Just looking at it carefully will show there are no signs of casting.

Some illustrated examples. Two of mine are very similar, the seated Daruma and the manju.

Sukaira I appreciate the suggestion in Nagoya and would love to see it, but it is too far out from our planned activities to be practical. I’ll actually be in Nagoya in the next hour or so, but only as a brief stop on the Shinkansen headed to Kyoto. I wish I had looked at Rai Kuniyasu in person while I was there. Yes, $10k is the top of my budget for my first one, but I don’t want to spent to the top of the budget if I don’t have to. Thanks for the suggestions. Bugyotsuji, For the first Kamakura sword that I started this thread with, I didn’t know why it was still available after a full year and for a reasonable seeming price, so I asked some experts. I’m not knowledgeable/experienced enough to recognize blade size “irregularities” from the numbers in a listing. YBBB pointed out the small size, which I confirmed in person. Even without YBBBs excellent posts, I would have eliminated it because of the size. It did not feel, in hand, like a sword I wanted as my first. Sitting next to the Chiyozuru blade and another Gassan blade didn’t help. I hesitated for a couple of days about asking about the Chiyozuru sword here because I was happy enough with it based on my in person handling of it to rank it as one of my top two options. As I continued to read old threads here, someone (sorry, no attribution) had a list of mistakes new nihonto collectors often make. One of them was not asking on NMB until after the purchase, so here I am. Thanks for your thoughts. Jeff

So, from what I've read, by the 18th / 19th century, the Chugoku region (a big chunk of western Japan) eventually peaked at around 80% of domestic steel production. But, that's at its peak. Regional decline in steelmaking started around the 11th century. And at least by the start of the Edo period, there were still several hundred furnaces spread across Japan (with more than 100 from the Chugoku region). So, more centralised, yes - but there were still at least a dozen steel making prefectures spanning the entirety on Honshu. You'd imagine swordsmiths had some degree of choice in materials - as much of the steel was transported. In any case, the picture it paints, is a progressive reduction in steelmaking distribution, over the course of half a millennia - and whilst by the end of the Edo period, one region was dominating - this wasn't the case at the start - and there had been a similar progression towards centralisation starting centuries before that.

常陽住源正兼? https://nosyudo.jp/b08021385/ Masakane(?)

Alex , I had this conversation not that long ago with someone who lived in Japan for nearly twenty years , he is a high Ranking Iiado instructor , now living back in the UK . he also travels back to Japan to order Shin-ken for private commissions , his take on it is due to the lack of artisans covering all the different discipling's in the new sword making process , it is now taken up to a two years, to have a custom sword made for his Iiado students , previously one year was about the average time for a new Shin-ken .

Will post this sword on the board later tonight-enjoy

This ones on a Navy sword-will post on military forum

It depends on which Ichimonji school and when it was made. I had a Yoshioka Ichimonji which I have used for lectures at our ToKen Society. It had everything: sunagashi, kinsuji, yo and tobiyaki. Even konie, which was specifically mentioned in the Juyo paper. Soshu could be very intense in its sunagashi and kinsuji hataraki, much more than Ichimonji. If you want a lot of hataraki in the hamon, I suggest Ko-Bizen, Hoki, good Fukuoka Ichimonji, Soshu, Soden (eg Chogi, Kencho). Other schools are more subtle and you need a well trained eye to see them and know what you are seeing: Awataguchi, Rai, ko-Aoe. But they are there (usually ko-ashi, small yo). In the images below, the photos illustrating yo, tobiyaki, choji/togari, gunome are from the same Yoshioka. The images with inazuma , sunagashi and uchinoke are from the same Moriie.

In my humble opinion, the era is of little importance, the savoir-faire of the blacksmith is paramount. A sword of an Inoue Shinkai or a nidaiTadahiro is more desirable than the sword of an obscure swordsmith of the Kamakura period.

I'll throw in something tangential to common prospectives just for the sake of it. Nihonto is 80% hada; most of what forms hamon is just the hada that was heat treated. Yet shinto essentially all done in just one hada type and there is also sort of one dominant hamon type, we can call it gunome in nie. As a result, the difference between Kotetsu and Shinkai is miniscule compared to Samonji versus Norishige. If you like shinto, its fine, I probably do, but it does not have much if anything that goes beyond its typical "boundaries". Shinshinto can reach the level of early Nambokucho, but the average pieces tend to look forceful and glassy-plasticky. So when it comes to the best pieces, you can take shinshinto and it will be brighter and all elements tend to be very crisp and sharp, or you can go early koto and the same elements will be a bit tired, but they also be much more subtle. The early koto changes a lot depending on the angle of light/view, shinshinto tends to have certain optimal viewing angles where you can see most of the things the blade has to offer. There is this extra level of depth in good koto, and its also a very natural effect, it just what hada does, versus in shinshinto its often clear the smiths really spend a lot of effort trying to get this particular element. So when it comes to my personal favorite swords I have 2 which are shinshinto, 2 koto, and maybe 1 shinto. Kirill R.

(DISCLAIMER: the following is just meant to answer the OP’s question in the most unfair, dishonest way and shouldn’t be taken literally. What the previous posters say about Koto swords is true and this shall only be taken as a caustic reply in which most, if not all is exaggerated!) Soooooo! What makes Koto swords so desirable? Let me be, for a moment, the fly in the ointment! 1) TRADITION: just as everything was “better before”, so it is with swords. Japanese swords were made by a very rigid society that engendered a rigid hobby. So obviously, past and venerable techniques are necessarily better than newer ones, even if, at the time, they were only dictated by what swordsmiths had at their disposal. 2) PRIDE: have you ever heard someone boasting he’s driving a Peugeot? Nope! People who drive Ferrari do! Same here! It’s always more delightful to awe somebody by saying:” I have a 700 year-old sword” than: “I have a 70 year old sword”. The worst of the shame being : “I have a Chinese wallhanger!” 3) SLOTH: let’s face it, Koto swords are easier to study than Shinto swords. Learning about 5 traditions is always easier than learning a multitude of traditions. 4) FAKE NEWS: everyone knows Kamakura and Nambokucho swords were perfect! No, really! They had beauty, grace, efficiency... wait? Efficiency? They were so practical and efficient that they had to be suriage during the Sengoku era to be useful in battle. 5) SIZE MATTERS: Everyone knows Shinto swords are useless because they weren’t made for battle but to display showy qualities. Not so with Koto swords! Eeeerrr! What about those Nambokucho swords where samurai from the Southern and Northern court fought to see who had the longer one? I mean the sword, right? Isn’t that being showy? 6) SCARCITY: actually, this is my only serious argument, so no joke here. Most of the swords on the market today are Shinto swords. It’s logical. After all, they are more recent, didn’t experience real battle, so it is normal that we find an array of swords ranging from bad to excellent. Now, the early Koto swords are more scarce. It’s logical too. They’re older so had many more opportunities to be lost, destroyed, whatever. So it’s also logical to postulate that most of those that survived were cherished family swords of quality. If this is the case, we can also postulate that many swords of lower quality disappeared in the maelstrom of time, leaving only the upper quality swords. Thus, those Koto swords we have are truly better than the more recent ones because the good ones are the only one left! Once again, anyone feeling piqued by my post, please read the disclaimer and realize this was written with a very humorous effect in mind! Please don’t send an evil ninja to exterminate me! In the end collect what you like and attracts your eye until you stumble upon your own personal treasure.