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The way I see it, anyone preserving nihonto in good condition is doing a good thing. And even if it’s mumei, suriage, and from the Shinto period, it’s still worth preserving if it’s in polish. There’s never a reason to judge anyone who is collecting in good faith within their means. If you meet a millionaire who owns 50 mumei chu-saku Kanbun wakizashi, then I think a conversation might be in order. But we really have no place to criticize the average Joe/Jane who (hopefully) builds a small library of books, sees swords in person when possible, and owns a low grade blade or two. It’s all relative. There are blades out there that are truly junk, and I think we all know that’s not what we’re discussing. Everyone has their own collecting journey, and we all learn as we go. I would never judge or fault someone who genuinely loved nihonto and owned a mumei Shinto piece if it was the right investment for them. Owning art of any kind is personal. And preserving artifacts should be commended regardless of their value.

Ray, I’m interested in where you place the guy who will never be able to afford a $5000+ sword? Should he stop studying? Stop collecting? What if he owns a few $1000 blades collected over 10 years, and has the passion, just not the funds? Where is his place in the grand scheme of things? Take myself as an example. I’ll never own a very good sword. Doesn’t matter how much I put away for 5 years. If I ever found myself with $5000+ I’d be obligated to put it on the house. Do some needed repairs. Get better medical aid. A million sensible things. A few thou over the years was possible at the right time. But a big purchase will never happen for logistical reasons. I point this out because many members may be in the same boat. When currencies sit at 17 to $1, sometimes reality means we will never own really good stuff. Doesn’t mean we don’t appreciate it though. Or study it. But where do you place those collectors? Those for whom $10,000 is not a lot clearly are able to look at this all from a different point of view. Here, and in many places, $100,000 buys a really decent house. No ways will guys in that situation be able to throw that at a sword. Or even 1/10 of that, which is a house deposit. Should guys like that give up collecting?

Dear Adam. Your tanto is the fourth I have seen by a smith named Seishinshi Masayuki, a late shinshinto smith, see here for more information. As the koshirae appears quite typical for this man I would be inclined to leave it as it is. All the best.

One can be a good connoisseur without Owning/collecting swords (BTW, it is the same for allart fields). How many Rembrandt experts own one? Same for Van Gogh. Owning swords is a pleasure but can be very reducer. If You want to know early Aoe school, you will have to study many juyo ones to understand the essence of the school, owning one is not enough, you will have to understand the why of the « den » when the juyo is « den » ko Aoe.ades Study many good swords in hand is probably the key and not owning several Juyo ones. I doubt my friend Paul Martin owns a single Juyo swords and I am not sure that Darcy even has a Nihonto collection BUT their library is fantastic. Our friend Jussi has chosen Nihonto books rather than collecting books. His knowledge will become encyclopedic if he keeps on studying his books, comparing them, making statistics. if you take the NBTHK monthly Kantei challenge, one can strike atari without having seen a blade of this school. I am going to give you an example: more than 15/20 years ago, Darcy posted a Kantei challenge. I was the only one to strike atari, it was a Miike Mitsuyo juyo, I had never seen, a sword of this school but I did the kantei thanks to Robert Cole Sho Shin website.

I’m curious Rayhan, I'm not asking your salary or anything, but what do you do for a living? I see some people here, not just you, who seem to buy a new sword every week/month when I struggle to finish the month and can only use lay off payments. No offense meant, but your words remind me of the words of politicians who’ve been living in a sphere so far off that of common, average people that they clearly lose the ties to reality. Your opinions are only sound if you can afford the type of swords you’re mentioning. Art (provided that even exists as I don’t believe in art but just in craft) comes in many forms and at every price. A guy who will collect a page from a comic book artist he likes and paid a few hundred dollars for will probably Be as happy as the guy who just bought a Picasso. Actually, he’ll probably be even more happy because the Picasso buyer will probably put the Picasso in a safe and consider it as an investment (of course, who, with a sane mind could ever consider a Picasso on his wall except if he wants to barf everyday... in case you haven’t understood I HATE modern art ) Should this mean that the regular joe be prevented from his pleasures just because he can’t afford the best?

My guess is Brian is too much of a gentleman to bring up a very nice, appreciated, gift that was privately given and I would assume meant to be kept private... until now when it is publicly thrown in his face. Well done. I guess elitism doesn’t always = class... some things money just can’t buy. I guess he was speaking for all those who share in his current financial situation, yet still try to enjoy the hobby of nihonto.

The person doing the orikaeshi mei clearly thought so. All the best.

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm in the Midlands so not near the sea and not aware of any salt water. There was a scabbard but that fell to bits a few years ago. I've just another look at the blade and the it looks more like surface rust rather than pitting so, maybe, not as bad as it could be. I'm only a few days in to trying to understand the blade and get a grip in the different names of all the pieces so there's no rush from me to do anything drastic with the blade. My plan is to see if I can get someone Paul recommends to have a look and go from there. Hopefully it will be good news but we shall see. I'll update as I find out more. 🌲🌑🌲

Interested to hear the details for your commission thats currently in process and the final results. I haven't but do have a recent Enomoto Sadayoshi(Mukansa) katana commissioned in 1986. It was special ordered for the prior owner Iaido master Mr. Sekiguchi to commemorate the passing of his 6th Dan (later became 10th Dan). http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as18465-刀：昭和丙寅秋湧水心貞吉作無鑑査-katanashowa-hinoe-tora-yusuishin-sadayoshi-sakumukansa https://youtu.be/UvW6gXWgmQk

One of my Kai gunto has a mon on both menuki ( photo of one attached ) and an identical one on the Kabuto gane . I haven't seen this on a Kaigunto before. Interestingly there is considerable writing under the fuchi some of which reads Kaigun hira maki ( Navy flat binding ) and Mon menuki nyu ( Mon set in menuki ) I can offer no real explanation for John's original observation but agree that the percentage of kai gunto with mon on is lower than the percentage of Shin gunto with mon on them. Ian Brooks

Hi Mike, The mei is Jumyo. It is a real sword but not even close to being worthy of restoration; don't spend any more money on it. Learn what you can from it and then try to move up to something in much better condition. Grey

It is as Steve said. I would take Paul up on his offer of having a Token Society member coming to look at it before you listen to anyone else. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, as it were. It won't cost you a dime that way and you can make a more informed decision. I know that most people would be happy to look at such a case in person if they have the expertise and it were nearby.

Not world class art, but hand painted and signed, so i suppose its art Only £21, rather like it though, maybe from a restaurant in down town Tokyo, from the 80,s Any other members have one?, or is it just me daft enough

would you prefer I simply left Alex, i see you are upset? Perhaps if you need to have a go at me, start a new thread? Please don't hijack this one

Aye, probably for best Just for the record, Ray not so long ago referred to another member as a c---, but nothing got said

I agree with Grey, study it but don't invest further in it. Jumyo is a very common mei and there were many of them over the centuries. There's no reason to think that it is not a genuine mei, though once you get the talcum powder out of it you can look to see if it was cut hundreds of years ago or more recently (in part by looking for recent rust in the signature). Congratulations on breaking the ice with a decent inexpensive starter sword.

EDITED: better use the ignore list than get angry.

One of the best pieces of advice I have ever been given by a top art critic in the UK was, "Collect the dealer first, then make a collection" The advice came about after a trip to Japan where I met up with Darcy Brockbank. Darcy had for many years been shouting (in a kind way as he knows how) about how I should be collecting in a different way and that my pursuit of a collection from Heian to modern day needed refinement. To prove hos point he showed me swords that I had never though possible in the world of collecting, items that I could compare to museum grade. It was a shock, I had to quickly calculate in my mind how many items I had that now had no place in the collection, not because of their condition (I pay what a dealer asks, I do not ask for discounts), but because the path was not linear to my goal and needed refinement in quality rather than quantity. Raymond Singer is a good dealer to collect and keep in our list. Therefore the Uda is (for an Uda) a good sword in quality but lacks the merits of condition in size attributes and zaimei (this is acceptable given its age and period in hostory that the shortening happened). Ergo the price you paid was I am sure in line with the item you have received from Raymond. I also have a Juyo Ko-Uda with sayagaki from Tanobe Sensei who pins it to Go Yoshihiro and the Juyo paper is from session 13 attributing it to Ko-Uda, I love these swords, so much activity to admire. I do not think yours is anything to do with Yamato Shizu and nor should you wish that either. An 80cm Nagasa Ko-Uda with mei and in Ubu condition at Juyo would run the price segment of closer to 75K USD depending on the condition (which attributes to its overall quality), did you pay 75K for your item? I agree relationships, especially with such knowledgeable and trustworthy dealers such as Ray are absolutely priceless, its a small world we live in, reputation matters. I was just using my Ko-Uda above as an example but, as you point out, I fully understand its far from say a top quality 80+cm ubu with Norishige mei in perfect condition. In full transparency, and this gets to what Brian brought up, I am 31 and raising a family so my wallet and ability to collect is constrained behind many other priorities that take precedence. When it comes to quality/quantity and buying the best you can afford, I have set my collection to a limit of 5 or 6 blades with a limit on how much I want my total investment to be. The Ko-Uda above was $6k, a great deal in my opinion for what it is, and unless I decide to liquidate most of the collection in exchange for 1 blade some day, I will likely never own a juyo but thats ok, solid TH quality pieces is where I shall happily reside.

Axel I do not wish to engage in arguments either. It is true that o-kissaki is associated with Nanbokucho (broadly after 1330) and Soshu den and Soden Bizen. However, what I am doing here is disproving that this is when o-kissaki emerged. John asked when the earliest examples emerged and I am proving below with examples from 1230-1280 across schools (Ichimonji, Mike, Sairen, Taema) that o-kissaki had already emerged in the mid thirteenth century.

Is there a setting for that, Brian?

Thanks, Rayhan, the baby-faced Dave has made a good basic attempt but that is what it is - very, very basic and interspersed with anime and video game clips. It failed to deliver on its promises of debunking myths. And much as I like Natasha and am very grateful for her helping us with various Leeds Armouries visits for our Society, I would have wanted to see Greg Irvine interviewed too. There were some comments in there about the Mongol invasions and the resulting death of the tachi in favour of the shorter katana for single handed combat which is simply not the case (videlicet the long Nanbokucho tachi, which came in fashion exactly after the Mongol invasions).

Ray, Hope my post did not come across as criticism. I genuinely wanted to speak for others out there in a similar situation, and find out if there is a place for them/us. I think it is precisely because I stay firmly grounded that my Jen situation is always under control. Reality guides my purchases. But I think I speak for many. And of course you are allowed your (valid) opinion as long as it remains a civil discussion. I enjoy reading these posts. But I speak for the average guy out there too. As for the lovely Aizu katana, it remains my only papered sword. It, and a wonderful katakiriha zukuri waki by Tsuguhira from Darcy remain my 2 favorite and best swords. I treasure them. When I typed above, I specifically mentioned really good swords, meaning stuff like Ichimonji and Aoe etc etc. those that go for $20k+ No, I will never sell these swords. No matter what happens. They are not investments or money storage. They are things that make me happy.

Hello Ray, to quote "That is a valid point but as I said, to judge anything in terms of its quality you must have experienced great swords" For me, thats utter elite bull---- Ive been sucked in again lol. Ive come to the conclusion you are not worth the time to reply. Ive read 2 of your recent threads and both look like they are intended to wind folk up. This one starts with "If it offends anyone, you are free not to read it, and the other goes on about something we have been over already I actually agree with most of what you stated above, but your so "elite" you cant see the wood for the trees. Take note, not every "expert" comes here. I know guys that will never own a "juyo", but when it comes to knowing what is what, they are way ahead. To coin a phrase, they wouldnt want to get caught up in "bun fights", like this Good luck with your Juyo collecting, keep the guys in business.

A hint at the mei. Couple of easy kanji there. B.O.M.M

It is Hanwei/Cas Iberia. https://www.knifecenter.com/item/CIXH2223/cas-iberia-sakura-arrowhead-authentic-design They do a lot: https://www.google.com/search?q=hanwei+arrowheads&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02zBYUzVRXCaIkBsZJ0y0lCROlVpQ:1597509808330&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiC-Znl053rAhXgSBUIHQjSBZMQ_AUoAXoECBUQAw&biw=1600&bih=770&dpr=1.2

Yes it could well be a modern one The file marks on the tang look a bit naff but still an impressive item I think the tone of reply helps the poster Brian didn't say it was modern but it may be worth checking out If a reply came back with something like 'its a modern copy or rubbish then that can be antagonistic For me I don't care what replies I get to have an idea which members are knowledgeable and those that throw grenades and step back This is not directed at you Adam ask we have had a few conversations that have been conducted in a friendly manner Just my observations

Ray & Jean, I've published this summary several times, & would like to get your opinions on blade shortening: The early regulations relating to the length of blades have been mentioned, several attempts were made at reducing the number of sword wearers, as will now be seen: In the second year of Kencho (1250), Hojo Tokiyori prohibited ordinary people from carrying long swords. This regulation was enforced by Akashi Kanetsuna, since then, common people and all priests carried long Kogatana called Wakizashi no Tachi. In Tensho XVI (1588), Hideyoshi made a proclamation to obtain from common people the surrender of their swords. Being a cunning man, he announced that it was his intention to build a Daibutsu Temple in Kyoto, and that he required thousands of nails, and he wished people to hand over their swords so that they might acquire merit towards a future life by stopping their earthly fights and contributing towards a religious cause. But people were less interested in a problematic paradise than in actually protecting themselves, and they did not rise to his bait. In Genna VIII, the Shogun Tokugawa Iyetada prohibited common people from wearing swords to avoid brawls; the Tachi was called then O Wakizashi. In Kwanyei XVII (1640), Tokugawa Iyemitsu prohibited the attendants of Bujin from carrying tachi. In Kwambun X (1670), Tokugawa Iyetsuna issued a regulation making the length of tachi 2'8"-9", and o-wakizashi 1'8", and anyone carrying a longer sword was liable to punishment. In Tenna III (1683), Tokugawa Tsunayoshi reiterated the prohibition to common people to wear the long sword, but allowed them to carry a tanto; musicians and painters, even when of the Samurai class, were debarred from carrying a big sword. In Kwansei X (1798), it was decided that any sword exceeding 1'8" should be termed Naga Wakizashi, and anyone carrying such a sword was liable to punishment. Later, the length was reduced to 1'5". Finally, in Meiji IX (1877), the Haitorei was issued prohibiting the wearing of swords, except the one sword belonging to soldiers and police when in uniform.

Hi Ray, just to be clearer with my reply. You stated Heian to Nanbokucho – OK Muromachi onward – Not OK Cant remember the dates so these are off google Nanbokucho 1336-1392 Muromachi 1336-1573 (lets just say 1392 onwards) Most people forget (me included) that early Muromachi is EARLY. As mentioned above, there wasnt a time when all smiths got on the phone to one another and agreed from that date on, all blades from now on will be the same length. You will see swords dating well into the 1400,s that resemble those of the Nanbokucho period, o-suriage mumei. I would be interested to read your views with regards early swords that are Ubu, but mumei. Again, horses for courses. If you can afford the top swords with all the bells and whistles then thats great. Saying that though, a lot of us are happy at the cheaper end. There is something in accepting what you can afford and being happy with it, mumei, flaws etc, they dont seem to bother me as much, which is good.

I think Ken is referring to the sequence number identifying each reply in a given topic. As in "see reply #23 in thread X"

PM sent, Mike. Enjoy.

I think Grey and the others have prety well summed it up. All collections have to start somewhere. You bought a thing, and it's a real , original, and old Japanese Nihonto thing. And that's very cool. Better than being totally ignorant and starting off with a Chinese replica (which is what I did, years ago).

Recover well, Brian! Good vibes ordered, Kathleen

The Kanji on the suspicious sword are stamped in with tool like a screwdriver point, not cut or chiseled as is normally done.

Mike I think the boshi is all there and obviously several ware'. I would think for the price you got a true Nihonto even if in rather poor condition. Congrats you got your first real blade. Rich

I second you got what you paid for but you won't find out it's the lost masamune. Someone should tell you who's the mei is. Still I think at that price and budget you did as expected. Congratulations.

Well, buy this next: The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords https://www.amazon.com/dp/1568365810/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_TfVnFb0KEQHK2

yep, I wasn't exactly shooting for the moon here. If I bought an authentic, possibly traditionally-made tamahagane Japanese blade, then my goal was achieved. Could definitely make out a sort of funny shape and several flaws, but as a start to a someday-modest collection, this would be enough to make me happy

Fallacy: call to authority. You assume that this museum is composed of authorities who know better and is just not the hobby of a rich man. Or, you assume that the people advising are not in the 70s to 80s themselves and thereby completely unable to adapt and change. So, if you look at this as a case to cite that uchiko is ok, then you are basing it on bad reasoning. The only thing that matters is results. You are supposed to PRESERVE your sword first and foremost. Constanty grinding it with an abrasive is ALTERING the sword. Every. Single. One. Of. These. BUT "I" USE UCHIKO "CORRECTLY" whenever i get my hands on the sword and the damage they have done it needs shiage to fix. That is cost and time and money coming out of someone's pocket and it limits the life of the sword. It is patently RIDICULOUS to rub a sword with an abrasive item in order to "care" for it. Do you "care" for your mirrors by rubbing them with sandpaper? Do you "care" for your windows with sandblasters? Then don't "care" for your swords with uchiko. Honestly this far in, it's just stubbornness. People who are 80, I forgive, they won't learn something new. Tanobe sensei doesn't use uchiko on the swords I bring him to show so I don't see any reason why you should be saying his care system is inferior to yours because you use uchiko. And I can show you so many swords, each one of them destroyed. The same way you ask everyone are you above average intelligence they will say yes. That is what you get from the uchiko crowd. Frankly, the old guys out there 50 and up, you can't even see with your eyes anymore the damage that you're doing, but a young man can and so can the camera. The camera does not lie, it reveals all of the abuse from uchiko and it renders items unsaleable after your life long "care" and so they need to be polished again. As long as you insist that abrasive materials are "care" items and not repair tools, this will happen, a fast cycle of polishes until swords of today no longer exist. And when they no longer exist we will point back and say these guys thought sandpaper was a good material to maintain a steel surface. How sad. ALL YOU NEED IS OIL AND REMOVE OIL You, as a custodian, do NOT need ANYTHING more than that. OIL REMOVE OIL Sandpaper is not required in this process. I ... my mind is just completely boggled, that people are still in this day and age confused on the matter or saying I am the one who does it right. However I look around me and see Japanese people claiming they are immune to covid due to their enhanced genetics and I see people refusing to wear masks because it's a hoax so I am not surprised that people lack the facilities to determine that abrasives are not care items. CARE MAINTAIN DO NOT ALTER OIl, and rub oil off. That's all you need to do for your life. Yeah, here is the curve: It's a rust removing tool and if you don't have rust, don't use it. Otherwise oil it and remove the oil. There is no way to avoid this. You with your old eyes you can't even see. I can't even see with my old eyes. You won't get it off, you get it in the oil, you form slurry. The evidence is literally on EVERY SWORD that was "cared" for with uchiko. Swords far more valuable and important than what you have. Don't use it. There is no reason for it. Microfiber removes the oil better than a slurry of polishing stones rubbed over steel and does no damage. People shouldn't even be fighting for this backwards stuff at this point in time. I am dealing with top level dealers and they're all using microfiber. Tanobe sensei is using microfiber. It's just ... like people who want to drink hot sake because they think it's authentic. People do not do this stuff anymore. It's an anachronism. It's gone. You're using typewriters in the iPhone era. STOP PLEASE STOP

I know this is a big no-no but as an engineer I just can't help wondering what a rust removal laser would do against such a rusty blade.

I agree with Robert S. (Surfson) as the sword being Kanbun era. This is one of my swords which is very similar, not only in a extremely shallow sori, but notice the saya has a swirl pattern also. Even though the saya appears to have more curvature as in Steve's friends sword, mine and I suspect his fit quite nicely. Dave M.

And here I come, the fly in the ointment!:) First, I agree mostly to what you say. In a perfect world, there is no reason for a Muromachi > onwards sword to be (ō)-suriage... And yes, other reasons enter the terms of speculation: people wanting to have their swords pass for another, school requirements, height of the swordsman, trends and fashion... possibilities abound. Yet, I think that with this thread, we are back in a way to the fundamentals of the previous one. A non papered, suriage sword of those periods will lose about half of its value. Yet we can find some good quality swords in this category. So for someone with little money, it is a way to acquire fair quality swords, with good Hada, Hamon and hatakari, that the most fortunate collectors will shun because they suspect foul play or are only interested in the finer examples. Once again, the money issue and items for every kind of collectors. Besides, even though this isn’t the subject of the post, let’s talk for a second about Gimei: should we or shouldn’t we have a Gimei signature removed? You will probably say yes, so it can be re-submitted and getting papers. I’m in the camp of "no", because if it is Gimei, this is part of the sword history. So long as you don’t sell it for an original and remain honest, who cares who made it really? Someone cared enough about it to carry it knowing it was Gimei, and it was still preserved in that form. So that’s the other dilemma: reality versus history. Look at Kondō Isami's "Kotetsu" which actually was a Kiyomaro. Should we erase Kotetsu for Kiyomaro? If so, that’s negating that sword's past history. Though again, in a purely ideal world, you are right.

Posting items for sale on here is perhaps the fairest platform available, as anyone who senses something wrong or suspect will speak out on it. Unlike a website/auction site/ebay etc. etc. where if your item is suspect/ludicrously priced or simply fake it will probably not sell. Here it will not sell and you will also have every man and his dog tearing it apart with gleeful zeal and quickly find yourself a proverbial leper in the community.

Gentlemen, Before you get too carried away with master plans to send or not send to Japan or whatever can I suggest a good first step might be to let someone with some experience look at it in hand? Steve if you pm me your contact details I will try and put you in touch with a member of the Token of GB who is closest to you. In hand they can better judge what it is and condition and advise you on the next step. Regards Paul

Just to reiterate, this smith is the 10th and last generation of a long line and i wouldnt be selling without good reason. Its a very well made sword, prices are said to rise in the future.

I own several blades almost twice that old, so, yes, seriously. Not very unusual, as the Muromachi period was almost constant wars, so many blades were made.

Anyone interested in updates? I will be back home tomorrow after nearly a month and a half out. Assuming my housekeeper didn't walk with my collection. I can take some new pictures to see how the wax has held up.

Haruaki Tsuba The dragon rising to the heavens beyond the white snow-capped Mt. Fuji makes the clouds and draws the landscape that is spiralling on the ground. Carving in high relief (takabori) with gold inlay (kinzogan) of Mt. Fuji and the dragon, and distributing silver for the snow, sense of colour is abandoned. Haruaki toured around Tohoku, produced works at destinations such as North Kanto and Hokuetsu, and left behind the names of those places. In the 4th year of Ansei (1857) he died at Echigo Shibata. 白雪を冠した富士を越えた天に昇る龍は、雲を越こし、地には波涛うずまく景を描いている。富士と龍を高彫して金象嵌、雪は銀色を配して色彩感覚も豊かである。 春明は東北を巡遊し、また北関東、北越などの旅先でも作品を造り、その地名を切銘したものが残されている。安政４年（１８５７）に越後新発田で没しいる。

Because Showa 13 would be 1938? 😀

Richard Fuller, "Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks", pg 249, said they were cut in half before melting. I have seen full sets of koshirae (fittings) for sale with the half-blade still in the tsuka (handle). I don't recall where I read the letter, but it was from a Japanese citizen who witnessed many blades being cut in half. You would be amazed, then, at what G.I.s are willing/gullible enough to buy, back then and today! While the war was still going on, there were scammers, even G.I. fakers, selling fake stuff to souvenir hunters who weren't on the front lines and wanted something to bring back home. This thread is about flags, but it highlights my point: https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forum/ken-jasper-international-militaria-forums/Japanese-militaria-forum/944383-allied-made-banzai-flags

Hi Phil, Best guess is that this is the end of a broken sword repurposed after WWII to sell to members of the Occupation Forces. No real tanto is ever shinogi zukuri; that is an easy clue. Grey