Yep..it is in the implementation and regulations that you will see all the nasty aspect appear. That is where they throw in limitations that make life difficult, as seen here in SA.
I expect you are going to find it extremely difficult to import and export swords, and will have to jump through hoops. Luckily you have groups working for your best interests..without them all would be lost.

My comments about a spy are a bit misleading. But you definitely have someone or a group posing as a "Collectors & Re-enactors Organisation" (let's call them C&RG for short)

As an example: the question Should curved, single edged swords (sometimes known as “samurai swords”) be added to the Offensive Weapons Order? - One C&RG says yes..the rest no.

The question: Do you agree with the defi nition as suggested and should there also be a minimum length of blade for the weapon?
One C&RG votes yes.

The question: Should there be any exemptions for genuine Japanese swords?
One C&RG votes No ??!

The question: Should there be an exemption for martial arts practitioners?
One C&RG votes No.

The question: Are there any exceptions, exemptions or defences in respect of existing offensive weapons which should be added?
One C&RG votes No

Notice a pattern? I fail to see any logic there at all, unless the supposed group is actually an anti-organisation posing as a C&RG...or they should be closed down. They are not acting in the interests of any supposed members they may have.

Just pointing it out. Would love to know who they are.

Brian

This is all assuming that the same C&RG posted all those answers. Technically there's no proof of that. But it does seem far more likely than not... and very weird.

Brian,
There have been an abnormal number of killings with knives and guns amongst rival gangs here in the UK. Many years ago when I was a lecturer in further education I noticed a lot of young men of immigrant parents who had been born and brought up here suddenly start talking with West Indian accents. Now they have imported the gang culture. Carrying knives and guns is 'cool' and in some cases, a shooting or stabbing is the mode of initiation.

In reaction to this state of affairs, very vocal pressure groups have been formed by grieving parents and the like who think the answer is to ban anything that can be used as a weapon. Hence the ban on handguns following a mass shooting and now swords. I am more than sympathetic to their losses, it must be dreadful to lose a child who is often only an innocent passer by, but they are targetting the wrong thing. The problem lies with the kids who are basically feral.

Ian

To Ian B.

Rather difficult to allocate titles when corresponding neath cover of pseudonyms isnt it?
However I agree with what you say,although this is nothing new. I remember from yesteryear as a beat 'bobby' ,the local teddy boys on my patch all wore their uniform and a good proportion carried italian style 'flick knives' Italian stilletto spring loaded,button operated things rigid, with 6 to 7 inch blades.
I knew that some of them had them and they knew I was aware of the fact and they were very careful when I was around or anyone who might contact me. They also knew that anything untoward no matter how slight would mean serious trouble for them. I knew their parents,relatives and where they all lived,any stranger being spotted instantly.But there was a mutual respect,built up over years.Its no good saying law enforcement deserves respect; respect is earned and with it comes trust.
No gun or edged weapon ever killed anyone,as you infer its the person behind it.
The Home Office and its various agencies need to get their act together over drugs and the American style gang culture thats come with it. Banning in this country and others has been clearly seen to have no effect at all,in fact has exacerbated the problem it sought to handle.

Henry,
You have really hit the nail squarely on the head. Our hard-working, overstretched and omnipotent leaders go to all the trouble and effort, without waiting to be asked, to ban things and pass laws against various behaviours - and what do the crooks do just ignore them. Is there no gratitude left.

Ian

Henry,
It has just dawned on me what you mean and that you do not know my name. I have never had any intention of writing under a pseudonym, it just never occurred to me. For the record the name is Ian Bottomley, Chairman of the Northern ToKen Society and until September, Senior Curator of Oriental Arms and Armour at the Royal Armouries in Leeds.
Sorry about the unintended oversight.

Ian

Ian

Sorry ,no offence intended; just call it a 'senior moment'. It was the Ian.B. that threw me.Whilst I'm on would you or indeed any other have any idea what the Conservative Party 'take' on this issue is. Lets face it this whole thing has more to do with politics than facts,most of which they've got skewed anyway. Perhaps you may be of the opinion that a few letters might help our hardworking representatives come out into the open with a few 'transparent opinions'.

I have to wonder if in this new legislation there will be mention of other large curved swords, e.g.: used for arguments sake within a religion or would they not mention these in case they upset the minorities again?
Would this also effect the people who perform national dances e.g.: the Scott’s, Turkish, etc.
I have to ask then what about the large collections that are held and are in public view in castles, and museums from every nationality in the world, where these might be said to be cultural heritage, so then might be argued are the items held in private collections.
As has already been said it is not the weapon that kills but the person behind it, and if some one is determined to commit a crime with what ever weapon they choose then no amount of law will stop that person from getting what they need and carrying out their intentions, don’t forget there is no such thing as “ total security” there is always away around it. This has already been proved by this government by allowing 11000 illegal immigrants into varying security jobs in this country.
Just my thoughts.

As far as I understand it, no other swords or edged weapons are included at this stage, but will be looked at in the future.

My one fear is that when the very next incident occurs with a "samurai sword" they will not turn around and say "we were wrong, the ban has no effect" but will instead say "see?..we were right. There were too many exemptions and the laws were not strict enough"
Bound to happen.

But anyways....
In this forum, we are preaching to the converted

Brian

Hi Ian,
Please to know you are well again, wellcome back.

All,
I have aready pointed out to the Home Office that if they persist in using the term 'samurai sword' any barrister will shred the prosecution since it is effectively meaningless. I have also pointed out that the definitions they keep coming up with apply to just about every cavalry sword ever made anywhere. I thing they have taken it on board since they are talking about a meeting.

What worries me more is the question of carrying a sword in a public place. As the law stands now you cannot legally take a sword out of your home and take it anywhere. Equally you cannot buy a sword in auction since it cannot be taken to the auction rooms, which themselves might be construde as a public place, nor could you take it away if you bought it. We know what is meant by the law, it just hasn't been thought through.

Ian

Hi All,
The issue of race and immigration has been brought up. I am not talking about knives or guns but out of the handful of crimes committed by replica samurai swords how many of these are committed by immigrants and ethnic minorities?

Dear Chan,
As you probably know the number of crimes committed with swords of any type is very low. I think the BBC's last report quoted 80 in the past 3 years. I did the calculations when this first started and it was something like 0.001% of reported violent crime.
At no time in any of the correspondence, reports or meetings I attended was the issue of race or ethnic background discussed. The overall feeling was that crimes involving any form of edged weqpon and indeed firearms was more common amongst the disadvantaged groups within UKs multi ethnic society. Certainly the ratio of gun crime resulting in murder or grievous bodily harm carried out by members of Afro-Carribean and Eastern European communities within London was far greater than the percentage population would predict. I would suggest this has much more to do with Environment than ethnic origin.
With regard to the specific question about any attacks by members of ethnic communities using swords, as far as I remember there was one very high profile case when an Afro-Carribean man with a history of mental illness walked in to a church naked except for a replica Katana. He proceeded to attacked the congregation but was eventually disarmed by a policeman using an organ pipe as a makeshift weapon.
In all other cases the racial origin of the criminals was not specified.

This is not a race issue. As has been said here and in many other areas, this ban will do nothing to reduce crime (as quoted by the ACPO) what is needed is initiatives to address the causes of the problem that make young people feel they need to carry and use any weapon or do damage to others.
regards
Paul

Dear Paul,

Thankyou for your time in posting. If I recall there was one other case involving a brother of a well known black athlete who was arrested for using a replica samurai sword a few years ago. The police argues that "Samurai swords" is fast becomming a weapons of choice for gangs, possibly implying a particular ethnic group though did not emphasise which. I find that an overstatement based on at least what the gutter press had gleefully reported, some of these crimes involving these immitation swords were mostly committed by whites, not always necessary under 21 or involves robbery, mostly were mental disorder, domestic violence, suicide. Crimes that may have still occured regardless if a sword is involved and certainly across all racial, social and even gender divide. The last case reported involving so call samurai sword attack the assailent was a woman in a domestic dispute.
As far as immitation swords is concerned I think this idea of a gang culture is a bit of sensationalist reporting by the police picking on a soft target.

The cultural heritage of Japanese (art) swords has become the victim of its popular myth as a weapon. This happened before (end of WWII) and it will happen again. According to political and social circumstances this will go on for ever. Hysteria will substitute reason and vice versa (we seem to be far from an evolutionary step by now). All we can do is explain and explain and....to those, who are ready to listen. Until the next "Kill Bill"-movie sets our efforts back again.

We will always be a minority and have to be be more persistent than "the rest".

reinhard