cleaning help needed-dirty nanako- Ford?

Hello gentlemen,

here is a fuchi-kashira where its fine nanako is somewhat replenished. at first glance it looks do be some kind of dirt, but its not water-soluble.

could this be some kind of glue or raisin? or is it just petrified dirt and grease from the centuries

anyway with light application of 96% Ethanol, there is no change.

is it appropriate trying to macerate the coating over night

hopefully someone can help.. maybe Mr Hallam

Greetings Nikolas

I see some wear and some dirt. I use a well used toothbrush that has been cleaned. I use it with foamed soap. You can get soap without additives that is used on children. The foam variety foams out when you depress a plunger. It is gentle and you want to be gentle in cleaning. Dry it well when finished!

If the dirt isn't water-soluble, then you might consider using isopropyl alcohol with Barry's toothbrush. But I would also think about sticking the tsuba in an ultrasonic cleaner to see if that removes the gunk.

Ken

Thanks guys, i forgot to mention that i of course tried it with a toothbrush. as stated with water (cold/warm), foam, alcohol.

But with no result!

i wonder if i should drown the whole fuchi kashira in the alcohol for a couple of hours.. maybe this will macerate the coating?

the ultrasonic idea, sounds good. but is is safe for the goldplating?

regards, Nikolas

No way to know for sure until you try it, Nikolas. If there's a jewelry store near you, bring it in & ask if they'll try to clean it, first with the steam machine that they use on jewelry, & if that doesn't do it, with their ultrasonic machine. My wife & I have both at home, & so far no damage to any tsuba or fuchi-kashira we've cleaned.

Ken

I would definitely wait for an answer from Ford, or contact him directly. Better safe than sorry.

Brian

Looks to these eyes as physical wear/damage (by what?), with patina being damaged as well. Which gives it that dulled dirty look in addition to flattened nanako. One can see along the edges how the shakudo patina should look, dark and rich, as well as the shape of the undamaged nanako. A good restorer 'might' be able to strip and repatinate it as well as repunch some of the flattened nanako. There is always some risk the patina does not come all the way back to "original", it depends on the quality of the shakudo. Restoration would take up a good number of hours, so it all comes down to how far does one wish to go with the restoration versus value.

thanks gentlemen1

but i hesitate to do any harm to the piece and risking any damage to the patina and gold foil.

so i will wait for the experts opinions

as for a big restauration including repunching.. i don´t think i will go that far.

i like the aged look, and dont want to renew the item. just wanna get rid of the grid :D

greeting

Nikolas

Ken, any information on the ultrasonic and steam cleaners that you have would be appreciated. Cheers

It's perfectly safe to use a modern paint stripper on Japanese metalwork. I use Nitromors, it's vile stuff to handle but removes all trace of old wax, varnish and other organic coatings. It won't damage the patina or gold at all, unless either are just paint :D and if it is paint it doesn't belong there anyway.

Once that step has been carried out any remaining grime and dirt can be gently scrubbed off with and old toothbrush, warm water and a mild liquid soap. I use Fairy Liquid.

Attempting to re-punch nanako is unlikely to yeild satisfactory results, I'd go so far as to suggest it's practically impossible to do without merely creating a glaringly obvious patch of differently patterned ground. In this case I don't think the wear is really an issue, it's simply part of it's history and the patina seems to have healed where previously worn anyway.

Bringing back the patina on worn shakudo is relatively straightforward and should present no difficultly to someone versed in traditional processes.

If the colour is all still intact the piece can be rewaxed using Renaisance wax to protect and enhance the patina.

Robert, I got both the ultrasonic cleaner (http://www.hammacher.com/Product/84376) & steam cleaner (http://www.hammacher.com/Product/76668) from Hammacher Schlemmer. My long-time hobby has been making jewelry, so these have really come in handy.

Ken

Both appear to be affordable Ken. Which one have you found to be more useful for dirty kodogu?

Both appear to be affordable Ken. Which one have you found to be more useful for dirty kodogu?

I would definitely avoid using ultrasonic cleaner because vibrations may damage or loose some decorations. For example an ultrasonic cleaner is strong enough to clean/destroy patina on iron.

You can see on antique pieces missing parts of decorations such as inlay or nunome zogan as the time goes. If you use U.C. on a piece where are such subtle decorations, you may damage it.

I mostly use the steam cleaner, Robert, but caution you to use longer tongs than what comes with the unit - that steam is HOT! I haven't used the ultrasonic cleaner with kodogu of any kind so far, but it's worked great on menuki, & I haven't seen any sign of missing parts or inlay. The unit isn't industrial strength by any means, & just gives the piece a real good surface shaking that removes a ton of dirt, oils, & other crud. Oh, & it's nice that both come with a lifetime warranty, too.

Ken

I have to agree with Roman,

after more than 30 years in the jewlery trade and being a specialist in Japanese metalwork restoration the notion of cleaning antique tosogue in an ultrasonic cleaner is somewhat shocking to me. Roman explained most of the issues perfectly well.

Ford, just ordered some Nitromors and Fairy liquid. Do you soak them in the Nitromors, and if so, for how long? Will it damage shakudo, shibuichi, shinchu, any other alloys? Cheers, Bob

OK - we need some clarification here. The active ingredient in nitromors is dichloromethane, aka methylene chloride, but this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromors says:

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The current All Purpose version of the product ( as of 2011 ) does not contain any of the active ingredient dichloromethane, and the logo representing approval by the Guild of Master Craftsmen no longer appears on the tin. ( image to follow )

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So what does it contain at present???? Nitromors may not be available in Australia, but I would guess that ANY paint stripper product that has methylene chloride as an active ingredient would work exactly as Ford has outlined. However, anyone contemplating using it would do well to read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichloromethane

Best regards,

BaZZa.

EDIT: I haven't felt the same about my cuppa since I read this "In the food industry, it has been used to decaffeinate coffee and tea"

Bob

no need to soak as such. I merely place the item in a dish (glass or ceramic) and pour on just enough to cover the piece. A couple of tablespoons of the gloop will usually do. Don,t use a toothbrush in the nitromors as it will melt. To make handling less messy you might tie a bit of string through the nakago ana and lift the tsuba in and out of the nitromors that way.

Work outside and keep the stuff of your skin.

A few minutes is usually enough to lift off all and any varnish, paint and old wax. I reuse the nitromors where I can so try to get most of it back in the tin. What remains on the piece can be wiped off with old newspaper and then neutralised with white spirit or turpentine. It can then be washed in warm water with soap (as described) and with an old toothbrush.

Patina are uneffected by Nitromors.

Bazza, yes, as I said it is vile stuff but if handled sensibly (and the safety guidance on the tin followed) should not pose a significant risk. Having said that, I'm an enthusiastic supporter of the Darwin awards.

Thank you Mr Hallam!

That is interesting and good news :D

as already mention by Bazza, the original Nitromors isn´t avaiable everywhere.. like here in europe. But if there is no harm to the patina i will try an avaiable paintstripper, even when not containing dichloromethane.

i really haven´t thought of this radical way... especially when its so soft to the piece

Greetings

Nikolas

Greetings all.  It's a decade since you were here, so I'm not sure how many I'll catch today.  My question is to do with cleaning Shakudo.   I have a beautiful little Meiji-era table screen and the Shakudo metal has some blemishes.   Is it safe to clean with baking powder and lemon, or would this be a travesty?  With my thanks in advance,  Vivienne 

Read the label on paint strippers- some contain acid(s) that can remove patinas. Powerful ultrasonic cleaners can vibrate off electroplated gold.

i wouldn't get lemon juice anywhere near patinated shakudo.