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Point out the problems pt. 2 (with 84.7% more Nihonto!)


peluche399

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So my last thread opened quite the can of worms (or perhaps explosives).

 

So perhaps this is a better learning exercise. This blade has an (almost extremely) low price. Certainly it is badly in need of polish but what else about this sword makes it inferior? I wont provide other information so as not to skew the interpretation. To that end I won't make it obvious where these are from but these pictures are not my own, the site where you can find them is in the spoiler below.

 

 

This is a Wakizashi from http://www.japanesesword.com. Item number 811WAK2. One note: the seller says the hada is ko itame, my first guess was a ko mokume but it may be purely from the low quality of the pictures that I cannot tell.

 

 

Basic dimensions: Nagasa: 18", Nakago: 5 1/8", Mihaba: 1 1/4", Sakihaba: 7/8", Kasane: 1/4", Sori: 3/8"

 

What I see:

-badly in need of polish, some nicks in the blade, one that is rather large (probably too large to be fully polished out)

-Mumei although the patina seems natural and indicates a reasonable amount of age, yasurime seem good, some kind of glue or something though...

-No koshirae worth considering (there was a saya in terrible condition but nothing else and so I have omitted it)

-Seems like a sugaha hamon, Ko-mokume hada? hard to tell

-one worrying sign, it seems that there is little or perhaps no yokote on the left side of the sword?

 

So what other features make this blade inferior? Is it merely that it is badly in need of polish with no koshirae at all? I do not see many fatal flaws although the pictures are not great, at least this means there are no flaws which are large or obvious enough to be clear in bad pictures. In either case, would it be worth the cost of the polish? What are your thoughts on the blade overall?

 

Later I hope to compare this to another sword for the sake of pointing out differences but I did not want this one post to be too long. I wanted to get a good feel for this one, then I will compare it to a higher quality blade for the sake of hopefully learning more about what differences there are, why they would be and what makes them better.

 

Thanks

Andres G.

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Ok ok, so lets skip straight to the comparison. Here is what I was going to propose as the second example. Lets look at this one and you can tell me what makes it better than the first (other than what I can see).

 

This sword commands 40 times the price of the first. Part of that will undoubtedly be due to its koshirae (which are beautiful) and its polish, but what makes it a better blade?

 

I see a very nice midare with a fine itame hada that seems very regular. Very nice Kissaki with no yokote. Patina on the Nakago seems very even and indicates some age. The quality of the Mei looks good.

 

You see, I can tell you some basics about a sword. I can tell you a bit about the hamon and ha etc. but I cant really say what makes one better than another or why.

 

Spoiler again for source (these pictures are not mine):

 

This is from http://www.nihonto.com. Item E-8, Wakizashi by Hideyo

 

 

Thanks guys. What makes this sword great? What makes it better than the first?

 

Andres G>

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It's a signed blade by a well ranked smith in excellent condition with koshirae also in excellent condition. The other, an unsigned, out of polish, train wreck. Isn't it fairly obvious by inspection?

 

Have a look at a few dozen high quality swords and you should begin to see a pattern, literally. The shape will be pleasing, forging will be tight and flaw free, the hamon bright and active,, the nakago well finished. Look at 20 or so Japanese dealer websites at their more expensive merchandise and I think you will begin to see what quality is about. I think you already know what it isn't....

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It's a signed blade by a well ranked smith in excellent condition with koshirae also in excellent condition. The other, an unsigned, out of polish, train wreck. Isn't it fairly obvious by inspection?

 

Have a look at a few dozen high quality swords and you should begin to see a pattern, literally. The shape will be pleasing, forging will be tight and flaw free, the hamon bright and active,, the nakago well finished. Look at 20 or so Japanese dealer websites at their more expensive merchandise and I think you will begin to see what quality is about. I think you already know what it isn't....

 

 

Hmm, perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way. Forgive me, I'm just trying to find a better way to learn some of the things which I dont seem to be able to get out of the books (at least the ones I have).

 

I agree, I do seem to be able to "know it when I see it". When it is a fine blade, the hada is beautiful, almost in a natural way, like wood or cells, it seems to be less like metal and much less like anything made by a hand. The Hamon is beautiful with good activity but is still regular. The shape is pleasing with sharp and perfect lines. My problem is articulating all of this. I saw a Sukezane which was on the market for most of a year (selling for about a quarter of a million dollars) which was Tokubetsu Juyo Token. Even at that time, knowing very very little (before I ever bought any books on the subject) I knew it was absolutely beautiful, breathtaking, even more than a sword selling for tens of thousands. But why? I want to put a name to it...to put a modicum of science to it. maybe thats a futile effort.

 

And again, maybe this is just a poor comparison (I was trying to start with an easy one where differences would be obvious). Perhaps I should compare a sword worth $90,000 to a sword worth $150,000 and try to determine what makes one "better" than the other in that case.

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Learning to tell the difference between good and bad is the first step, and a relatively quick and easy one. Learning to tell the difference between good and great is another matter and can take a long time...

 

If you want to understand quality, you need to hold quality swords in your hand. It helps to have someone there to point out the highlights as well...Books, online images, etc., are not going to do it. Swords are 3-d with detail that can't be captured well in photos. Get to some sword shows or find someone local who can mentor you.

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Swords are 3-d with detail that can't be captured well in photos. Get to some sword shows or find someone local who can mentor you.

 

Shame I dont live in WI anymore...I assume you live there with your location listed :D .

 

I will be moving to SC in a few weeks. Next sword show anywhere close to me is the Tampa show next February...and I will be taking the SC Bar Exam on the monday after that show so there's no way I can go sadly. Tell me SC is secretly a hub for collectors of Nihonto...

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is the summer show over in Fl? Think they have exhibit or something going on, maybe a Flordia member will chime in ....on a lighter jib when I read bar exam I did a head slap....lol that's why!!lol, don't over think the process, see and hold swords buy books, get Comptons 100 masterpieces, eye candy you can learn from.

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Like Stephen I have had that same epiphany when bar exams were mentioned.

 

Let me say at the outset that it is easy to overthink these differences that you are determined to nail down, but from only photographs it is even more problematic because those differences that are so easy to see in hand do not translate either well or plainly in a photograph. Subleties of forging etc are easier to identify in hand than by even the best photography. Some are very subtle visually but profound quality wise. A bit like the letter of the law and the intent of the law if you want a legal parallel.

The differences between a $90,000 sword and a $150,000 sword could be as simple as the name and generation of the smith or as complex as the comparison of two similar but not equal swords from the same school and/or smith or era. and the difference at that level between good and great is sometimes in the eye of the professional appraiser only, and may differ between opinions given since professional opinions are apt to be a mixture of subjective as well as objective.

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when I read bar exam I did a head slap....lol that's why!!lol, don't over think the process.

 

 

Like Stephen I have had that same epiphany when bar exams were mentioned.

 

Hahaha, that obvious huh? :lol: I do quite like to nail things down...I must admit.

 

One day, I plan to go to Japan and see swords across the country. I am actually learning Japanese in the hopes that by showing that I went through the effort of learning the language and customs it will show that I have respect for the culture and perhaps it will get me into some doors that might otherwise be closed (such as some treasures held in shrines that are not normally displayed). Either way, there are the main museums in Japan to see plenty of amazing examples.

 

Perhaps what I am most curious about is why some elements are preferable. Certainly, that is obvious with things like voids and flaws but not so clear with others. I know to some extent it may be purely aesthetic but I'm sure some traits show quality forging, but what are those sorts of traits and why do they show quality work?

 

One example, from my very limited knowledge of metallurgy, the strongest form (next to a perfect crystal which is impossible) is a perfect random mixture. So, for example, in the hada, is it preferable to be very uniform because this shows consistency and therefor a high degree of randomness which is therefor stronger? This is all conjecture, mind you. Also, I do know at the very least a very uniform Hada is very very beautiful and is almost obvious, to a certain extent, when one sees it.

 

Thanks guys, it seems like taking longer strides forward requires some hands on experience. If any of you live in the southeast let me know, I'll buy you a steak dinner in return for a bundle of questions and a look at a blade! :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi peluche399,

 

When it starts getting messy is when you are comparing $3-5000 to $20,000 dollar (roughly) blades.

 

It seems to be a very grey market. I have bought wakizashis that "sell" for $9000 from one dealer but they are $2600 from another. Both are signed by the same generation of smith and are papered with similar hamon, grain etc. Prices often seem to come down to how trusted the dealer is and their reputation more than the actual workmanship in front of the buyer.

This scenario applies to new buyers but also educated ones who aren't risk takers.

I have personally watched mumei katana which have nics and forging flaws sold for double their normal value just because they were sold through a well known dealer. When the buyer tries to resell the sword after a few people have pointed out the flaws they can't achieve half the original price.

 

I find that some $5000 blades will have better construction all round but might not be signed or might be signed by a smith that isn't as well known. People seem to rather a ''brand name" ie smith mei in weaker workmanship than a better made mumei blade. The brand gives them a piece of mind when they don't really understand why they bought what they bought.

 

I think that many aspects of a nihonto purchasers decision making process is based on opinion. I have a nihonto signed by Sukemune who isnt well known at all as far as I can tell and it cost me 800 dollars. I am yet to see a sword under $25,000 that I would trade it for. The hamon changes shape completely three different ways as you rotate the blade in the sunlight. To me that is artwork and not easily replicated and only cost 800 dollars.

 

As far as functionality, some argue that a large bright waving temper line creates a weaker sword that is more likely to break than a straight thinner one. Obviously a large bright temper line on a mumei blade will command a higher price than a straight bright temper line on the same blade. So sometimes pure functionality isn't often one of the main factors driving price.

 

Generally you can sum up value of a blade by these things:

 

How much damage does it have?

How many forging flaws?

How tight is the grain?

How well is it polished?

How many times has it been polished/how tired is it?

Does it have a horimono that is well carved or a crap one used to cover flaws?

Is it rusted anywhere?

Is it polished/shaped properly to maintain correct intended geometry?

Has it been reshaped?

Has it been burned/heated after temper?

Who signed it?

Is it signed?

Is the signature authentic?

How old is it?

Was it cut down?

Has the metal been crystallized on the temper line?

How bright and vivid is the hamon?

What shape is the hamon?

Is it bent?

Has it been repaired?

Does it have a cutting test(s)?

Is random kanji carved into the nakago detailing something?

Is it soshu school?

If it has recent NBTHK papers it is worth more in general.

If it has recent NTHK papers It is worth slightly more depending on the paper.

Are the papers real?

What level are the papers?

How old are the papers?

The longer it is the more its worth.

 

Im sure ive missed something as I typed this quite fast. These are general factors that will drive up the price in an auction scenario.

 

Other factors like shape, time period, geometry, length, curve, specific hamon types, kissaki (some kissaki that are longer fetch a higher price), nakago shape or any other variation of original creative construction all come down to opinion of an individual and don't influence price across the board and heavily as the listed factors.

 

Cheers,

 

Trent S

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"I have personally watched mumei katana which have nics and forging flaws sold for double their normal value just because they were sold through a well known dealer. When the buyer tries to resell the sword after a few people have pointed out the flaws they can't achieve half the original price"

 

Bang on Trent, spend your money wisely Andres....

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Like Stephen I have had that same epiphany when bar exams were mentioned.

 

Let me say at the outset that it is easy to overthink these differences that you are determined to nail down, but from only photographs it is even more problematic because those differences that are so easy to see in hand do not translate either well or plainly in a photograph. Subleties of forging etc are easier to identify in hand than by even the best photography. Some are very subtle visually but profound quality wise. A bit like the letter of the law and the intent of the law if you want a legal parallel.

The differences between a $90,000 sword and a $150,000 sword could be as simple as the name and generation of the smith or as complex as the comparison of two similar but not equal swords from the same school and/or smith or era. and the difference at that level between good and great is sometimes in the eye of the professional appraiser only, and may differ between opinions given since professional opinions are apt to be a mixture of subjective as well as objective.

 

Let's all remember that the study of Nihonto is not an exact science. Collectors as well as real experts ( Shinsa teams ) very often disagree on schools, smiths and quality. It also varies depending on the judging organization. Fairly easy to tell garbage from good and excellent from good not so easy to say this sword is worth this dollar amount and this sword is worth a different amount when they are both great works.

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Hello Andres G.:

It is an interesting thread that you have prompted. At one level, a very unhelpful one, an answer might simply say it is all in supply and demand. What you are asking is really and primarily for the deconstruction of the supply side, and some of the helpful posts illicited touch on many of its elements. A feeling for the nature and weight of those variables will only come with time, and getting to shows and having contact with honest and helpful dealers and other collectors will be extremely useful to you. You just don't have your "sea legs" as yet.

The Orlando show that followed the Tampa show was about a month ago, and depending on where you are, the SF show is coming up Aug. 1-3. If you are on the East Coast Bill Green, the promoter of the Tampa show, is having one in Philadelphia Oct.17-19 at a convenient airport location.

Good luck and keep asking those dogged questions.

Arnold F.

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