Teppo opinion required

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

I would be happy and gratefull to have your opinion about quality, age and school of this teppo.

My guess is that it could be 18 or 19 century.

The barrel is octogonal with bamboo pattern made of brass and silver inlay in the top. The inlay is not common it look like Heianjo tsuba one's in technic. There is a mei, but too thin and too rusty to be read.

The teppo is 103cm long.

 

As I am far to be knowledgable on this topic , I got a lot of questions...

 

(Clic on picture to enlarge)

The teppo :

 

Is it a serial number ?

 

What is the purpose of the last hole in the right ?

 

The mei

 

The pattern .

 

 

Thanks a lot

 

Sébastien

[watsonmil]

Dear Sebastien,

Your gun appears to be a combination of two schools of gunsmithing, ... primarily the Sakai ( the lock stock and trigger ) and the Kunitomo. primarily the barrel and the mekugi ana covers ( brass cherry blossoms ). The numbers and letters you show on the side of the barrel are registration or stock type numbers. You are right for some reason the signature is obliterated by rust, and it would be nice if you could clean these up enough to be legible. The second hole on the right of the stock may have held two different purposes depending on the depth of the aperature. One ( and I believe the original purpose of these aperatures were for holding the butt end of the priming match ). Two ( and I believe some later smiths adapted this opening by not making them so deep to act as a ashtray for butting out the smouldering match upon completion of your shooting for the day ). Also it would appear that a decorative ring in the usual form of a Chrysanthemum flower is missing from around this opening as I can see the light ring on the stock indicating where this ornamentation was once in place. Your gun is missing it's ramrod, and this can be replaced with a piece of oak dowel of the correct diameter and stained with an oil stain to a dark colour. I would say your gun being that it has features of two schools and certain refinements that it is probably of the very late 18th century or more likely of the early 19th century. It is a nice looking example, and I particularily like the barrel inlay, ... not too fussy. May I ask what the caliber is in diameter ( cm or inches ) ? Also as so often happens with these old Tanegashima. they are still loaded. The way to check this is to insert a dowel or rod and measure the depth from the muzzle until the dowel or rod come to the bottom. Then remove the rod or dowel and compare with the top of the barrel to see where bottom lies on the barrel. In front of the touchhole by an inch or slightly less means it is still loaded, ... whereas if the mark goes slightly beyond the touchhole means its empty. Do not worry if it is loaded, simply get in touch with me for detailed instructions on how to remove the wadding, ball, wadding, and powder safely. watsonr@mts.net

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

Thank you for showing us your teppo. I would generally agree with Ron above. (The Karuka/Shakujo ramrod seems to be in place in the top shot).

 

Discoloration around the last hole on the right, (how deep is it?) suggests either a missing piece of metalwork decoration, or possibly exposure to heat when extinguishing matches.

 

The narrowness of the brass stock band at the breech end of the barrel suggests Kunitomo to me. Sakai tend to be wider. The general lack of ostentation also indicate to me Kunitomo over Sakai. The stock seems to have been rebuilt and restained at some point. The woodwork does not lie flush as it should on the left, behind the brass band. The barrel may well be older than the stock. The split Bisen breech screw is an old type. Possibly the barrel was kept from an old gun and a new stock built for it, then later the stock was repaired again, possibly in the West?

 

The numbers appear to say 壬申 Jinshin 1098, showing this gun barrel was recorded in one of the Meiji general registration round-ups starting in 1873.

[watsonmil]

Dear Sebastien,

Piers has a sharp eye, ... yes the ramrod is present. I would suggest it is broken however as it definitely should reach out to the end of the barrel when seated in it's holding channel unless the ramrod hole has been drilled abnormally deep ( which would be quite unusual ). Piers also noted the unusual stock repair or modification on the left side of the stock behind the brass barrel band. I would concur with him that this is most likely an older barrel that has been restocked and / or repaired at some point in time ... the stock that is. Still a very nice example and as you can see from Pier's and myself's opinions ... many Tanegashima are difficult to assign to a specific school as many have traits of two schools and not just one.

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

Here is a useful illustration from Sugawa San's Book, "Nihon No Hinawaju" Part 2, p.39. The description of the hole on the right is as Ron says, "Hikeshi no ana match-extinguishing hole (when hole only drilled halfway through). Wasoku (?) no ana, window hole (when hole goes right through)."

NB Just for reference, as the author, though knowledgeable, should not be considered as a final referee.

 

PS Despite the modifications I like your gun as it has several unusual features to it.

[Gunome]

Dear Ron and Pier,

 

Thanks a lot for your inputs and comments on this teppo.

 

The mei is bitten by rust, it makes craters, so some kanji disappeared and it is very difficult to read and more difficult to take good photos.

The split Bisen breech screw is stuck by the rust. I don't know if I could remove it. I won't break it.

 

Thanks also for the numbers translation. Is it frequent that teppo got a such registration number ?

 

I confirm you the ramrod is present, but due to patina of the wood, I guess it is not the original one.

 

It appeared that the stock is in 2 parts: one for the barrel and one for the mechanism.

I think you are right; it must not be the original one and, as you said, could be an older barrel restocked and / or repaired at some point in time.

 

Many thanks for the illustration from Sugawa San's Book. The hole on the right is only drilled halfway through, about 2 cm deep, and fully covered copper in the side and the bottom. I noticed the light ring on the stock and you are right again, the decorative ring is missing from around this opening.

 

I am at office at present, but when I come back to home I will measure the caliber and check if it is charged or not, and let you know.

 

Thanks again

 

Sébastien

[Bugyotsuji]

Sebastien, when you establish that the gun is NOT loaded, then you can work on the Bisen screw. Be firm, but at the same time gentle as a broken screw is a thing for much regret.

 

To prepare for removal, you can scrape off any red rust with a piece of sharp bone or ivory, and inject penetrating oil from inside and out for several days or weeks. Occasionally tap or bang from all directions with a rubber hammer.

 

NB If you use a wrench or vice without proper wrapping, you WILL probably make deep unsightly marks in the steel which will be difficult to disguise afterwards.

[estcrh]

The bisen threads are course and you should be able to loosen it with some thin penetrating oil as Piers mentioned, if his method does not work you could wrap the bisen head with some cloth and try to unscrew it very lightly with a wrench, they are fairly thick and strong.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, that's a very nice illustration.

 

Unfortunately many of these will not open and more and more extreme methods get used. Always better to take more time rather than apply more force.

 

I had a pistol with a rebuilt Bisen in it. The man who fixed it used a method I will not detail here; the thick steel screw snapped clean through under torsion. Always conscious of the 'new' Bisen inside, I eventually swapped it for another. A pity, because it was a really lovely gun otherwise.

[Gunome]

Hi Piers, Eric

 

Don't worry, in my own opinion, the Bisen screw is stick by the rust and, as I won't broke it, I thinks I let it as is, and won't try to remove it.

 

Eric, I read your posts on your rabbit teppo, and I would like to thanks you. It is very clear to understand and follow instructions to disassemble a teppo.

 

Mine is not in very good state and far to be as nice and beautiful as yours !

Sébastien

[watsonmil]

Dear Sebastien,

Being several time zones away from Europe and Asia, ... I often find it hard to reply to a post while it is still relevant. Anyways, ... YES the registration numbers are frequently found on the barrels of Tanegashima ( teppo ). It was a requirement of the Meiji authorities to record all existing firearms and who owned them, ... many owners however either did not know about the regulations, ... or simply ignored them as they do and should do today ( my opinion ). Regarding the stock, ... being that it is in two seperate parts DEFINITELY means it has been modified or replaced. Tanegashima stocks are always one piece efforts.

... Ron Watson

 

PS. Sebastien, ... I think it wise if you leave the breech plug ( bizen ) alone. If it is badly rusted in place as many are it will have practically fused to the barrel and trying to remove it may damage the plug. The inside of the barrel can still be cleaned by running an oily rag up and down it's inside using a standard rifle cleaning rod. You can even get cleaning rods which have removable heads such as brass brushes which will help in cleaning out the rust and dirt.

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

Ok understand, I will let the breech plug in peace. :D

I measured the caliber, it is 1.5 cm diameter.

I try to check if teppo is load : the ramrod stop about 1 cm before the hole for the powder (sorry I don't know the name). Does that means it is loaded :? ?

 

Thanks

 

Sébastien

[watsonmil]

Dear Sebastien,

At 1.5 cm your gun's Japanese caliber is 5 monme, .... a respectable caliber for hunting or warfare. The fact the ramrod stops about 1 cm above the flashpan hole tells me there is at least some residue powder and/or wadding in the barrel. The same cleaning rod that I described to you often comes ( or can be ordered with ) a screw jag which is simply a wood screw fastened base first into the cleaning rod so that the cleaning rod can be turned while in the barrel ... screwing the jag ( screw ) into whatever is still present. Once screwed into the lead ball, or more likely wadding and powder the cleaning rod is pulled back down the barrel to remove the object. It may take several tries to pull all the material out. It is often helpful to first have put a small amount ( enough to wet the entire inside of the barrel with a light machine oil like 3 in 1 oil ) or sewing machine oil. This will lubricate and make easier withdrawl of whatever remains in the barrel. Let me know how you make out.

... Ron Watson

 

PS. You can also take the entire gun to a resident gunsmith and have him check this out and carry out the work for you.

[Gunome]

Hello Ron,

 

Thanks again. I will try your method.

But what happened if the bullet is still in place ? The screw can't enter into lead ball, can it ?

 

More photo, just to share with you and enjoy.

 

Thanks

 

Sébastien

[watsonmil]

Dear Sebastien,

Yes, ... the screw will enter the soft lead ball ( with a little pressure as you're turning and once threaded 5 or 6 turns will usually come out of the barrel with a pull on the cleaning rod. If it slips off, ... simply screw the jag back in and give it 3 or 4 extra turns to get more bite, then try again. Most likely the only thing in your barrel is a bit of wadding and perhaps a little powder behind that as quite often the ball will have fallen out eons ago. Often children shove paper down gun barrels and this may be all that is in the barrel. I have had that experience more than once.

 

Looking at the newly posted pictures, ... I must say the repair to your wood stock is like nothing I have seen before. The stock appears to be much thicker at and just behind the brass breach barrel ring. I have NEVER seen this before. Perhaps if possible you could post photograhs of this area from different angles with the barrel removed. Do the two halves of the stock come apart, or is there some way that the gunsmith fastened the two halves together ?? A MOST unusual feature ! The lock too is a high quality lock called I believe a Geki Lock not often seen. I am becoming more impressed with your Tanegashima the more I see ! What do you think Piers, ... have you seen so many variables/anonamalies on one gun before ?

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, I have seen Tanegashima with stocks that come apart in the middle, a sort of travelling collapsible set, but the interlocking section is usually halfway down the barrel. Your gun, Sebastion almost looks like a fusion of two different guns, as if the butt had broken off and a different one had been fitted, with overlap for added strength. It looks quite serviceable.

 

It is highly illegal to alter a registered matchlock gun in any way but in Japan you will occasionally find people doing such work behind the scenes.

 

I notice the circle under the pan, indicating Bugu-naoshi. This means the gun has been heavily used so at some point a new plug has been fitted to the pan and into that a new finer touch hole vent has been drilled. I do not think it is a geki lock, (just the angle of the photo making the distance to the pan seem further), unless a later refinement such as a geki lock was removed and it has been reduced back to Hinawaju again.

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

More photos as requested

 

 

Thanks for your interest on my teppo.

 

Sebastien

[Gunome]

Hi,

 

I checked and it seems load. I remove powder, but the bullet looks like still inside.

I will let you know for next removing :D

 

Sebastien

[watsonmil]

Dear Sebastien,

Now that Japanese gunner got things ass backwards if you were able to remove the powder but the bullet is still in place :D . Stranger things have happened though. If you have a WORM ( screw ) on the end of your cleaning rod, ... use some pressure as you screw it into the ball ( if that's what it is ), ... and you should be able to pull it out. If you can't, ... just leave it in the barrel, ... it can do no harm if the powder has been removed as you're never going to fire the gun anyway.

... Ron Watson

[cabowen]

Maybe he removed the breach plug (screw) and took the powder out from the rear???

[estcrh]

 

I had a pistol with a rebuilt Bisen in it. The man who fixed it used a method I will not detail here; the thick steel screw snapped clean through under torsion. Always conscious of the 'new' Bisen inside, I eventually swapped it for another. A pity, because it was a really lovely gun otherwise.

Piers, I would feel the same way if I could not remove the bisen, I would just have to at least try working on it, force is not always necessary, sometimes gentle persuasion over a period of time works as well as brute strength. I have removed many similar bolts from old cast iron American engine blocks with repeated applications of oil, light tapping, light wrenching, icing the bolt head, heating and cooling the area etc.

[watsonmil]

Chris,

No, ... if you read the whole thread you would see that we discounted that option, ... otherwise he could just insert a rod and easily drive the ball or whatever else is in the barrel out from muzzle to breach. I think it is unlikely anything but perhaps rust or wadding remains in the barrel if as he says the powder has been removed.

... Ron Watson

[Bazza]

People do strange things, though. A friend of mine who is "into" cannon once told me he removed 16 balls from the barrel of an ancient cannon on public display somewhere in the Middle East...

 

BaZZa.

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers, I would feel the same way if I could not remove the bisen, I would just have to at least try working on it, force is not always necessary, sometimes gentle persuasion over a period of time works as well as brute strength. I have removed many similar bolts from old cast iron American engine blocks with repeated applications of oil, light tapping, light wrenching, icing the bolt head, heating and cooling the area etc.

 

Ah, Eric, you have touched on an area that I was hoping to avoid. With changes of temperature you can get discoloration. If you are not careful you can destroy at very least the patina; further any inlay may not take kindly to what you are doing and may react differently from the iron/steel. (Again trying not to give anyone ideas! Too obvious now? :lol: )

[estcrh]

Piers, your right, I should have said "gentle heat and cold"...!!!

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

I will let the bisen in peace. I won't try to do gentle heat and cold or try anything else as my own opinion is the bisen is stuck by the rust. I won't broke it. It is the safety solution for this teppo.

 

The brass part are dirty, as you can see on picture. Does I should clean it or let it as is ?

you may thinks it is a stupid question , but I know nothing about tanegashima and I won't do the same mistake that ones does on tsuba or nakago removing a patina.

 

Thanks again for all explanations and interest on this toppic. :D

[watsonmil]

Dear Sebastien,

From what I see the brass is the correct colour for a 200 year old gun, .... LEAVE IT ALONE. If you wish to clean the dirt off , that is fine. Just use a mild soapy water and soft cloth, ... but do not clean the brass with something to make it shiny. Once you have cleaned and dried the brass parts give them a wipe down with 3 in 1 oil ( sewing machine oil ). I first like to give the wooden parts a good amount ( liberal amount ) of Lemon Oil ( the stock ), inside and out then leave all alone once re-assembled. Afterwards a wipe down ( the whole gun ) with 3 in 1 oil say once a month using a small amount and soft cloth will suffice to keep the gun looking it's best. It would not hurt to give the stock BED a bit of lemon oil once a year as this area will not get the benefit of the 3 in 1 oil during your once a month wipe down. You can also use lemon oil on the stock instead of the 3 in 1 oil for your monthly rub down, ... that is a matter of personal taste. Don't forget to wipe the outside of the iron barrel with 3 in 1 oil as well.

... Ron Watson

[Gunome]

Dear Ron,

 

Thanks for your reply. You confirmed my doubt : don't clean brass part to make it shiny.

So, I will let the patina as is and just clean the dust with mild soapy water and use a soft cloth. :D

What is "Lemon Oil" ?

 

Sébastien

[watsonmil]

Dear Sebastien,

Lemon Oil is a high quality Furniture rubbing oil made from the rinds ( skins ) of lemons ( I believe ). Anyway a good quality furniture oil !

... Ron Watson

[Gunome]

Ok

I will try to find a such oil.