Shinsakuto or iaito?

[Bruno]

Hi all,

 

I rarely open topic but something is not clear to me.

 

I have seen these swords and some others these past months on Ebay.

 

I have always been told these modern swords shinsakuto cost around 15 000/20 000 USD.

 

So why, these two ones are so cheap if there are shinsakuto? In fact, are they iaito made by licenced Japanese smiths? If yes, an iaito can cost such money? Finaly, is it usual that licenced Japanese swordsmiths make also iaito and not only shinsakuto?

 

I asked seller if they were iaito or shinsakuto but he answered he had no clue to tell.

 

What do you guys think? Are they copies, "expensive" iaito or cheap shinsakuto, bargain?

 

I linked 2 but many appears on Ebay, dated in the 70s to 90s form what I remember. Very often sold by the same seller.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140729922934?ss ... 1423.l2649

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130666605200?ss ... _715wt_724

 

PS: From what year/date one can tell a sword is a gendaito and not a shinsakuto and vice versa?

 

Thanks for your help.

[kusunokimasahige]

I am wondering why you are so surprised.

 

These swords when bought new can indeed have prices of 15.000 tot 20.000 when you buy them off the Smith directly or on demand. That prices fall to about 7.000 US$ is not that strange is it in a society where there is a economic crisis.

 

That Komonjo would not know the difference between an Iaito or Shinsakuto is nonsense imho.

There are some shops selling real Shinsakuto, and all of those will be made by official and licensed smiths in Japan itself.

 

Also a lot of shops sell so called "Shinsakuto/Iaito":

 

http://iaito-katana.com/index.php?main_page=index

 

http://www.budo-aoi.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=101

 

On your question of division:

 

A Gendaito was made before and during WWII but after 1868 ! and a Shinsakuto is made after WWII (1945).

 

Iaito mostly are zink alloy swords without a cutting edge (in Japan at least) BUT !

At times, true Nihonto of earlier dates are sold as swords for Iai by some Japanese sellers:

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/iai/11491.html

 

The swords you point out in the ebay listings are not copies and not cheap, but they are Shinsakuto and a bargain they are maybe.

 

You can consider any non Japanese traditionally made sword as usable for Iai, but that does not cover it at all.

What would you call those ridiculous swords made of steel cables ? They are definetely not Shinsakuto, though the smiths would want you to bestow that honor on them....

 

Same goes for Bugei and other brands like ColdSteel. They make renditions of Japanese swords.

In my book swords like that are NEVER a Shinsakuto and to be honest, calling those fake metal objects Japanese samurai swords in my opinion is an insult to the Japanese sword and all it stood and stands for in itself.

 

Only a sword made by an official licensed Japanese smith is, if he uses the true traditional ways of forging, a Shinsakuto.. like for instance the swords Gassan Sadatoshi makes.

The rest is just not it, and never will be.

 

Hope that helps.

 

KM

[Bruno]

Dear Henk Jan,

 

Thanks for your detailed answer.

 

Maybe is not that simple...

 

About the iaito...no, not alloy blade...proper handmade blade, but maybe not tamahagane...these blades can be used for iaito kata exercises, like cutting bundle of straw etc...about 4/5000 dollars. The alloy blade is just for decoration sword...not sharp, so no licence needed in Japan.

Why they sometimes sell cheap, I don't know...that is why one needs to see them in the hand...this linked one below is made by Mukansa...but no papers. One would expect a blade made by a smith of mukansa level to have papers (because his work is special), so no papers means maybe iaito?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130666605200?ss#ht_715wt_724

 

So,

 

1° Is a iaito can be sold in that price range ie 4000/7000 USD, if sold as "iaito" and not as shinsakuto?

 

2° Is it true a shinsakuto which is not new can lost the half of its original price after some yeras? (I would be surprised of that).

 

3° Do licenced Japanese swordsmiths are making lower quality swords iaito, traditionnaly made but not with tamahagane? (for example the 2 swords linked above)

 

Thanks for your help

[cabowen]

Let's clear up some misconceptions.....

 

Dates have nothing to do with iai-to/art swords. You can't differentiate between them by a date.

 

There are no "papers" issued by any shinsa organization for swords made by living smiths.

 

Iai-to are made by modern smiths using lower grade materials and using some short cuts in the process. What those are exactly are usually not discussed by smiths. They can look very nice and can be hard tell apart from the art swords made by the same smiths. They require a license just like an art sword. There are a few tip offs in identifying them: usually mounted in koshirae meant to be used; lower grade polish, habaki, shirasaya most frequently. They are usually much cheaper than the art sword, typically $4000-$7000, depending on the smith. They are often wide in width with little taper toward the tip for tameshigiri, but not always...

 

Art swords are conversely usually in higher grade polish, habaki, and shirasaya. They usually cost $10K and up when ordered from a smith. They can often be had for much less when purchased second hand, but if they are nice they still sell for more than an iai-to.

 

When something seems too good to be true, it usually is...Many dealers, particularly those on ebay, aren't necessarily up to speed on the iai-to/art sword differences. As always, you need to evaluate the sword itself and consider all the variables.

[kusunokimasahige]

Thanx Chris.

 

Bruno, the difference between an Iaito and a Shinsakuto in Japan is in the cutting edge and if the sword is traditionally made or not.

 

In Europe the difference is mainly in whether it has or has not a cutting edge. So in many Iaido clubs you start your training with an Iaito which is not sharp and then you move up to a shinken (not traditionally made).

a Shinsakuto is for many practitioners a very expensive thing.

 

IAITO : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iait%C5%8D

 

That Nihonto and Shinsakuto are not that fondly used has two reasons.

 

1. It is very expensive when something goes wrong. With older Nihonto it has happened that they broke in practice.

 

2. An Iaito does not cut. It is still a weapon, but far less dangerous than a Shinken, Nihonto, Gendaito or a Shinsakuto.

 

For tameshigiri most will use a shinken, some a Shinsakuto or Gendaito and not many a Nihonto of older date.

 

Now on your questions:

 

1: A lot of swords get sold at various prices, so also some which might be Gendai or Shinsaku or even Nihonto and yes it is possible they are referred to as "for Iai" That does not make them Iaito specifically.

 

2: Prices in swords can vary enormously. It all depends on the bidder/buyer. (what the person is willing to pay)

If a sword does not sell quick, prices will be lowered. You only have to check out the for sale section on NMB to see regular price drops.

 

3: I do not know. What I do know is that there are many varieties of swords. With Gendaito we have mantetsu swords made of railroad Iron, non traditionally made oil quenched blades with stamps, traditionally made blades water quenched without stamps when made of Tamahagane and even traditionally made blades with Tamahagane with certain other stamps. With older swords you have Nanbantetsu swords, Tamahagane swords and who knows, even swords made of Korean or Chinese iron Ore if you are in the right era. All of varying quality and beauty or ugliness...............................

 

It is a maze out there.....

 

KM

 

PS: Chris, it is simple according to the books I have read and am reading. There are sword periods divided in:

 

Koto, shinto, shinshinto, Gendaito Shinsakuto. All with their respective periods in time. That is what I meant.

 

Koto (the old sword period, pre 1596), Shinto/Shinshinto (1597 to 1876) Gendai (1877 to the end of world war II) and Shinsaku (modern).

Iaito are not part of that division.

[cabowen]

KM-

 

I would suggest reading my post above. You have a number of misconceptions....

 

Iai-to are not only alloy blades made for kata, Those are usually called mogi-to....

 

Shinsaku-to simply means a newly made sword. They can be made for iai, as above, or as "art swords". Shinken means "real sword"; all smith made swords are real swords.

[kusunokimasahige]

Oh I am sure I will have some slight misconceptions, but my main line of reasoning here is that IN GENERAL, what I wrote about Iaito and Shinsakuto is accepted by many European practitioners of Iaido.

 

And mind you, even SBG katana and Paul Chen katana are called Shinken by these practitioners!

 

That that division is NOT the same in Japan you have now aptly made clear, for which I thank you. It clears up a lot of clutter.

 

 

KM

[Bruno]

Thanks Chris and Henk Jan,

 

In fact what I wanted to be sure was if living licenced Japanese swordsmiths are making or not both kind of swords: what I call iaito (not made with tamahagane but maybe in the traditionnal way) that could very much ressemble a true nihonto, AND of course what I maybe wrongly call shinsakuto ie true nihonto.

 

Now I have my answer. They make the 2 types.

 

As Chris said, there are clues to tell wether it is iaito or nihonto, but it seems dangerous to judge on photos.

 

I

Iai-to are made by modern smiths using lower grade materials and using some short cuts in the process. What those are exactly are usually not discussed by smiths. They can look very nice and can be hard tell apart from the art swords made by the same smiths. They require a license just like an art sword. There are a few tip offs in identifying them: usually mounted in koshirae meant to be used; lower grade polish, habaki, shirasaya most frequently. They are usually much cheaper than the art sword, typically $4000-$7000, depending on the smith. They are often wide in width with little taper toward the tip for tameshigiri, but not always...

 

I am surprised that these iaito are at this price range, whereas a nihonto shinsakuto which starting price range seems to be around 10K in first hand, can descreases in second hand. One can expect it can easily reach the price of a new iaito ($4000-$7000), right? Of course this does not concern I guess shinsakuto nihonto by higher smiths which original price is in the 15K/20K.

 

Not that I am looking to buy one of those on Ebay, my goal is more to know what is what and at what price.

[cabowen]

It is nearly impossible to make any concrete statements regarding prices. You never know what might turn up- see the thread about the Ogawa Kanekuni iaito purchased on ebay for $89....

 

In general, iaito purchased from a dealer, in koshirae, seem to go for $4000 to $7000. A nice second hand art sword by a middle of the road smith might have cost $12000-$15000 originally, maybe goes for $8K-$10K second hand....

[Eric H]

One of those ebay swords was made by Ono Yoshimitsu, the Mukansa-tosho. Although that Katana doesn‘t display his exuberant juka-choji-hamon, for what Yoshimitsu is famous, the price realized $ 7,697.00 is a bargain.

Detailed pictures were not available anymore, so it is not possible to check whether it‘s legit or not. Anyway Ono Yoshimitsu's swords are normally very expensive.

 

A Katana made by himself, that he had used for Iaido, was sold for $ 15,000.00

 

http://moderntosho.com/OnoIai/Onoiai.htm

 

Eric

[Bruno]

Hi Eric,

 

Glad you saw it too when Mankusa photos were available.

 

I read Chris's indications to differenciate iaito and shinsakuto true nihonto, and must say that it is hard to tell if you do not have it in hand. Well at least to me (even in hand I am not sure to make the difference! :D )

 

So you beleive it was a real nihonto and not iaito? In that case yes it could be a bargain.

 

I beleive on Ebay people have a price limit they would not have with others professionnal dealers. That is why this Mankusa wether iaito or real nihonto could not have been sold much more on Ebay.

[Eric H]

Glad you saw it too when Mankusa photos were available.

 

Mukansa means „exempt from examination“...the level of Mukansa work is considered above competition, they are exhibited at the annual Sword Forging Competition without undergoing an examination process.

 

The Iaido Katana by Ono Yoshimitsu is a Shinsakuto, an „Art-Sword“ made in the traditional way, performed only with a basic polish, considered to be sufficient for an Iaito. To emphasize it is a real Nihonto.

 

Eric

[Bruno]

Mukansa means „exempt from examination“...the level of Mukansa work is considered above competition, they are exhibited at the annual Sword Forging Competition without undergoing an examination process.

 

That is why in my previous post I was expected in the auction a kind of paper that show it is Mankusa.

 

There are no "papers" issued by any shinsa organization for swords made by living smiths.

 

I think Chris was thinking I was talking about NTHK/NBTHK paper but in fact I meant a kind of certficate that prove it is Mukansa.

[cabowen]

There is no certificate to prove blades are made by mukansa smiths. The smith himself receives a certificate, but there is nothing issued with his swords.

 

And remember that the mukansa status is given by the NBTHK for their contest. There is a new group now that is having their own exhibits/contest independently from the NBTHK. They will have their own system.

 

All blades made by licensed smiths are considered "nihon-to", iai-to and art swords alike, or the government would not permit their licensing. Some "nihon-to" have more art then others.....

 

All newly made blades are shinsaku-to. They are differentiated by purpose: smiths call them iai-yo or kansho-yo (居合い用　　鑑賞用) which means for iai or for aesthetic appreciation. As I have said several times, those made for iai typically are made from a lower grade of materials using short cuts. They are therefore usually much cheaper than those made for appreciation.

 

When you understand the situation you will come to realize that the title of this thread makes no sense.....

[Eric H]

a kind of certificate that prove it is Mukansa

 

To become a Mukansa, a smith has to win a Tokushô (special prize) at least eight times, and usually among those the Takamatsu no Miya award three times. The rank of living national treasure is usually given to Mukansa towards the end of their career in appreciation of their life’s work and development. They then receive a modest stipend from the government, and are in turn expected to teach their craft to the younger smiths. (Guido Schiller)

Eric

[cabowen]

a kind of certificate that prove it is Mukansa

 

To become a Mukansa, a smith has to win a Tokushô (special prize) at least eight times, and usually among those the Takamatsu no Miya award three times. The rank of living national treasure is usually given to Mukansa towards the end of their career in appreciation of their life’s work and development. They then receive a modest stipend from the government, and are in turn expected to teach their craft to the younger smiths. (Guido Schiller)

Eric

 

Ningen Kokuho is designated by the government; the exact criteria are not specified and it is commonly said that, surprise, politics oftentimes plays a role. The quote above makes it sound like all Mukansa receive this designation but in truth there are usually only 2 Ningen Kokuho representative tosho at any one time. Since the system was created after the war I believe there have only been 6 or 7 so designated....

[Bruno]

All newly made blades are shinsaku-to. They are differentiated by purpose: smiths call them iai-yo or kansho-yo (居合い用　　鑑賞用) which means for iai or for aesthetic appreciation. As I have said several times, those made for iai typically are made from a lower grade of materials using short cuts. They are therefore usually much cheaper than those made for appreciation.

 

When you say short cuts, you mean short cuts of tamahagane, or it could be another material?

 

When you understand the situation you will come to realize that the title of this thread makes no sense.....

 

Certainly, but it is also a matter of semantics. When I say shinsakuto I mean real nihonto forged nowadays whereas it litteraly means a newly made sword. And by iaito I mean a practise sword blunt or not, not made with tamahagane.

 

It is like when one says "showato" to talk about WW2 non traditionnaly made swords, but litteraly showato means sword of the Showa era.

[cabowen]

 

When you say short cuts, you mean short cuts of tamahagane, or it could be another material?

 

 

They use lower grade/cheaper materials (lower grade tamahagane, maybe recycled old steel, maybe western steel, etc.) and they use short cuts (simplified construction, maybe less foldings, etc.- smiths, as I said, do not generally like to discuss exactly what these short cuts are).

 

Certainly, but it is also a matter of semantics. When I say shinsakuto I mean real nihonto forged nowadays whereas it litteraly means a newly made sword. And by iaito I mean a practise sword blunt or not, not made with tamahagane.

 

I am only giving the conventions as used and understood by smiths in Japan. If you choose to define these terms in your own way, as is your right, then we will have great difficulty communicating.....

[Eric H]

Since the system was created after the war I believe there have only been 6 or 7 so designated....

To support preservation and inheritance of important art performances and craftsman's techniques of Japanese tradition, the system of Important Intangible Cultural Property重要無形文化財 was initiated and established in Showa 29, 1954 by the Japanese government. This is the highest level of recognition a living Japanese artist or artisan could receive. Individuals holding this title are also known as living National Treasures, Ningen Kokuho人間国宝. The Agency for Cultural Affairs, a division of Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology of Japanese government, is responsible for selection and awarding of this title. Among about 150 individuals so far awarded with the Ningen Kokuho title in the craftsman fields, six are outstanding sword smiths. They are Takahashi Sadatsugu 高橋貞次awarded in Showa 32, Miyairi Yukihira 宮入行平in Showa 38, Gassan Sadakazu 月山貞一in Showa 46, Sumitani Masamine 隅谷正峰in Showa 56, Amata Akitsugu 天田昭次in Heisei 9, 1997, and Osumi Toshihira 大隈俊平in Heisei 9. The last two smiths are still active, while other four have passed away. These smiths are well known to Nihonto enthusiasts in Japan and around the world.

 

Eric

[Bruno]

Thanks Chris and Eric. That was a very instructive topic to me, but I have a last question.

 

 

They use lower grade/cheaper materials (lower grade tamahagane, maybe recycled old steel, maybe western steel, etc.) and they use short cuts (simplified construction, maybe less foldings, etc.- smiths, as I said, do not generally like to discuss exactly what these short cuts are).

 

At least can we assume they have always a core steel despite of the shortcuts?

[cabowen]

 

At least can we assume they have always a core steel despite of the shortcuts?

 

Not necessarily....Many I would bet are sunobe....

[Bruno]

Not necessarily....Many I would bet are sunobe....

 

In that case, they are not so different from WW2 sunobeto/seki showato, if I understand.

 

The main difference being one is made by well known smiths whereas the other by almost unknown seki smiths. One is considered true nihonto and the other not.

 

Isn't it strange?

[cabowen]

In that case, they are not so different from WW2 sunobeto/seki showato, if I understand.

 

The main difference being one is made by well known smiths whereas the other by almost unknown seki smiths. One is considered true nihonto and the other not.

 

Isn't it strange?

 

They are quite a bit different....They are made of tamahagane or oroshigane, hand forged and water quenched. Most WWII Seki blades are none of the above. All you need to do is compare a few modern iai-to made by Japanese smiths with the average WWII Seki blade and you will understand...

 

Please be aware that many, if not most, early blades are also thought to have been sunobe! Multipiece construction was a development that occurred over time....

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

I was led to believe that some of the lower end blades sold through Budogu-Ya (for export) are in fact made by chisel and knife makers who fulfill their quota in the slack season.

 

Cheers

[cabowen]

Morning all,

 

I was led to believe that some of the lower end blades sold through Budogu-Ya (for export) are in fact made by chisel and knife makers who fulfill their quota in the slack season.

 

Cheers

 

I find that hard to believe since all swords made in Japan must be licensed and made by licensed sword smiths. If they are licensed as sword smiths (requires apprenticeship and examination), then that would be different.

[Bruno]

many, if not most, early blades are also thought to have been sunobe! Multipiece construction was a development that occurred over time....

 

Do we know from what approximate date the core steel appeared? And when it was generalized in the making process of a nihonto?

 

So a sword without core steel can be called a true nihonto?

 

In other words, a sunobeto not necessarely made with tamahagane can be a true nihonto as long as it is forged by a licenced Japanese swordsmith, water quenched and traditionnaly made despite the unknown "short cuts"?

[John A Stuart]

Do we know from what approximate date the core steel appeared? And when it was generalized in the making process of a nihonto?

 

A fundamental question and important. It would be great to see information on this if someone wants to open a thread on this subject. John

[cabowen]

 

Do we know from what approximate date the core steel appeared? And when it was generalized in the making process of a nihonto?

 

I do not know....my guess would be probably not until the mid Kamakura period, but that is just a guess....

 

So a sword without core steel can be called a true nihonto?

 

Yes...Tanto usually have no separate core as well....

 

In other words, a sunobeto not necessarely made with tamahagane can be a true nihonto as long as it is forged by a licenced Japanese swordsmith, water quenched and traditionnaly made despite the unknown "short cuts"?

 

In the eyes of the government, yes......usually they use tamahagane or oroshigane though.....Iai-to aren't considered art swords and aren't collected (my most people interested in collecting nihon-to). They are practical swords, much like those made in the past for actual combat-kazuuchimono and other utilitarian swords....

[FBJ]

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

 

I'm posting this again because us westerners are still stuck with the flawed understanding as to what separates the various grades of Japanese, and Japanese-styled swords. A nihonto and iaito are not necessarily two different things, for example, but a nihonto and mogito are.

 

Don't let anyone (or in the case of the Wikipedia page for 'iaito') con you into thinking any of these terms are prestigious. Fully all of them have very clear cut definitions. My 2010 shinsakuto, built for me as a practicing iaidoka, is also a nihonto as it was forged in Japan using traditional methods and signed by the swordsmith. Because I practice with it, it's also an iaito -- three definitions that apply to one sword.

 

I have heard all manner of opinion of what makes a nihonto or doesn't, or why iaito aren't nihonto, and often those opinions differ on whether the person making them are collectors or martial artists. I find it silly for example to think that some might not consider my shinsakuto iai blade a nihonto because they have it in mind that somehow it uses inferior materials or has a lesser polish, isn't old enough, et cetera, as if a nihonto has to meet some nebulous standard of quality to be considered one. This is snobbery.

 

If we adopt the terms of a foreign language, I firmly believe we need to use the terminology as those who speak it natively do.

 

All nihonto are shinken.

Some shinken are nihonto.

Some nihonto are iaito.

Some shinken are iaito.

Most iaito are mogito.

No mogito are nihonto.

Some mogito are shinken*

No mogito are shinken**

Some mogito are iaito.

Some kazarito are shinken

Some shinken are kazarito

No nihonto are kazarito.

No iaito are (or should be) kazarito.

Most mogito are kazarito.

 

* Outside Japan.

** Inside Japan.

 

Thanks,

[Bruno]

In the eyes of the government, yes......usually they use tamahagane or oroshigane though.....Iai-to aren't considered art swords and aren't collected (my most people interested in collecting nihon-to). They are practical swords, much like those made in the past for actual combat-kazuuchimono and other utilitarian swords...

 

Very clear, the nuance is important.

 

Yes...Tanto usually have no separate core as well....

 

That is right, but can we tell the same for a longer sword?

 

I do not know....my guess would be probably not until the mid Kamakura period, but that is just a guess....

 

I will look for this info.

 

Thanks Chris, you are as very often of much help.