information on pre-Edo gun usage

[Peter Bleed]

Dear Friends,

Over the years I have acquired some Japanese matchlocks and a few basic books on them. I like the guns and they look nice on the wall, but until recently I have not tried to explore them in depth. Currently, I am curious about the USE of matchlocks during the later Sengoku jidai. Can anyone on the forum point me to information on the pre-Edo use of guns. Specifically I am curious about variables like 1) the rates of fire that were standard for matchlock use, 2) the amount of ammunition carried by gunners, and 3) information on the operational management of ammunition among matchlock troops. Specifically, i am curious about how ammunition was operationally managed.

I feel myself buying a bunch a books!!

Peter

[Bugyotsuji]

Peter, some very good questions there, none of which I can answer. I spend much of the year moving with a castle matchlock display group, but it would be hard to say what is from pre-Edo and what is post. Watching them though, I suspect much of what our members do is 'natural' to them culturally and historically. I just follow along until it becomes second nature for me too. Well, not all of it. :lol:

 

Since caliber/bore was *not standardized, each gunner would carry all of his own tools, including bullet mold/mould and apart from major repairs, would be able to do everything regarding upkeep of his personal armour/armor and weapons. *Not strictly true! Read Ian's reply below.

 

Among the antique objects we collect on the side, you can still find old Danyaku-bako, or powder boxes. These have drawers in them for the components of ammunition, and many have shoulder straps for the allotted fellow to lug around the battlefield. The powder is prepared and a certain amount is finely ground for the priming powder. Where we gather and get into our armour, there is a designated powder person who calls out our names with coarse and fine powder rations, pre-prepared for each Tai-in member. Each person carries a 'Douran' box on his belt which can contain perhaps ten or twenty quick-loading tubes depending on individual size. We also have a string around the neck with quick-loading tubes affixed thereon.

 

Ball-bags can be found in antique shops, but none seem to be very large, holding up to thirty or so ball, I imagine? Depending on the upcoming battle size, there would be no harm in spending the previous evening creating plenty of ball for your gun. Unfortunately after 10 or 20 shots the barrel gets very hot and fouling from blackpowder would have been a serious problem. Perhaps a good shot may have had two or three guns being loaded for him by nearby ashi-garu, especially for castle defence/defense. How fast you can reload depends on practice, but around thirty to forty seconds?

[Bugyotsuji]

Battle tactics were cleverly worked out as can be seen at Nagashino. Gunners were staggered so that a third were reloading as a third fell back and a front row was firing. They ran as they swapped positions in and out, making use of the Ba-bo-saku fencing. Takeda Shingen's mounted troop was destroyed by the shocking rate of fire thus achieved.

 

PS I can provide photos of any of the above objects if you are interested. As to reading materials in English, I should imagine Ian, Ron etc., may be able to help you.

[watsonmil]

Dear Peter,

The general consensus is that the gun first arrived in Japan in the year 1543 aboard a Chinese cargo ship. Aboard were three Portuguese, two of whom possessed Matchlock Muskets. to make a long story short, the guns were purchased by Lord Tokitaka the feudal lord of Tanegashima. Lord Tokitaka subsequently ordered his chief Swordsmith to duplicate the guns. Within a decade swordsmiths ( gunsmiths ) were producing guns across the breadth of Japan. The gun ( Tanegashima or Teppo as they became known ) was first ordered in quantity by Lord Oda Nobunaga in 1549 ( 500 firearms ). It can be assumed that firearms were being used in Feudal in-fighting from this period on ( supposedly the Warlord Takeda Shingen was killed by a bullet in the year 1572 ) culminating in the famous Battle of Nagashino in 1575 where Volley Fire was used under the direction of Oda Nobunaga to great effect upon the Takeda. The great advantage of the gun over the bow was the fact that a lowly Ashigaru ( foot soldier ) could be taught to operate a firearm in a very short period of time in contrast to the Bowman who required months if not years of practise to become competent.

 

The rate of fire would of course vary from individual to individual and their respective training. Generally speaking European Musket men were capable of firing 2 shots per minute ( Flintlock ). The Matchlock being slightly more awkward would probably be about 1 1/2 shots per minute. I personally know of no records as to the amount of ammunition carried by each man ( but I would assume no more than about 20 shots ). The operational management of the gunner's ammunition would have been relegated to A Samurai in charge of between 5 and 10 Ashigaru. He would have been in charge of the handling of ball and powder in quantity and match for his group as well as discipline such as giving order to fire.

 

Now then, the number of English language books on the subject of the Japanese Matchlock is small indeed. Examples which come to mind : The Japanese Matchlock ( A Story of the Tanegashima ) by Shigeo Sugawa, ..... Giving Up the Gun by Noel Perrin, ..... The Gun Collector ( Sept. 1950 issue ). Even the number of current books in Japanese is somewhat small and often as not full of errors. You see The Japanese have something of an adversion to firearms in general and consequently few collectors to justify publications.

 

I am sure Piers, Ian Bottomley can add to my brief address to your question. In addition, a search of the NMB will bring to your attention a great deal of information.

 

... Ron Watson

[IanB]

Peter, I have done a little work on the subject of matchlocks over the years that might help. Firstly, I have to disagree somewhat with Piers in that Japanese guns during the Sengoku were to some extent of standardised bore. Yes, there were guns of different bores used by different armies and for different uses, but the basic issued musket in any particular unit was standardised, generally of 5 or 6 momme (14.9 or 158 mm) - economic in the use of lead and powder and simple to supply. Would the danyaku-bako be used for loose powder? A very dangerous practice on a battlefield with lit match and guns being shot everywhere - surely the drawers in these boxes were to hold a supply of pre loaded cartridges to top up those held by each gunner in his cartridge box. Apart from anything else, the drawers in these danyaku bako would be the worst kind of receptacle to hold loose powder. There are plenty of surviving large powder containers with a spout for that purpose.

 

I would warn against relying on the practices used in some modern displays. A few years ago I was involved with the bi-biannual festival at a well-known shrine where a group paraded dressed as archers with utsubo. They were convinced these should be worn diagonally across the back, upside down and wouldn't hear of anything else. Seems they were more familiar with Robin Hood films than their own culture. Only 5 minutes away were historic paintings done in the Meiji period showing the same parade at that time where the quivers were being worn in the correct manner on the right hip (It was from this painting that I learned what the little loop of cord on back of the utsubo at the top was for - I always thought it was to hang the quiver on a peg when not in use, but no, it was for a cord tied to it that passed over the left shoulder and fastened to the obi to hold the thing at the correct angle.)

 

It is true that guns did not take off until the 1540's after the Portuguese introduced guns made at the arsenal at Goa in India, but there had been an earlier occurance, in 1510 when a Chinese gun turned up in Osaka. This ended up with, Hojo Ujitsuna, who had copies made. There is even some evidence that Murakami Yoshikiyo, took tentative steps to use these guns in the battle of Udehara in 1548 but they never caught on. Sadly, there is no image, survival or even description of what this gun was like in either China or Japan so we don't know why it was a failure. We do know what the Goan guns were like because two survive in the Tokugawa Art Museum in Nagoya (or they are South East Asian copies - one having an internal spiral lock spring, the other the usual external spring). One of these has had the Tokugawa aoi kamon added to the pan cover but the style and decoration is Indian.

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

An interesting subject and some good questions, plus some excellent replies. Today I was asking around for more information, but Ian beat me to the mark. Apologies for some misinformation in my earlier post.

 

I did not mean to suggest that loose powder was carried in the drawers!

 

Ian is right about sharing gun size. There would be a group of 'Yori-ko' musketmen called up, who would be issued with for example 6 Monme guns, '0-kari-deppo' (lend guns). The man in charge of this group and who would hand out the guns would be called the 'Yori-oya' or Yori boss. The bore within this group would be standard so that ball could be interchanged. (The guns, would have been manufactured to order with the bore set by the same barrel rod.) Other Yori-Oya would bring their men together and the whole group was called the 'Kumi'. Each Kumi might have a different specialty or size of gun/bore. Various Kumi from around the Han came together and formed the Tai or Teppo-tai, for the Lord.

 

Privateer Samurai would carry a Shizutsu, perhaps 10 Monme 'Ju-monme-zutsu', and could have up to four men with specific roles eg Tsutsu-mochi, Danyaku-mochi, to support him.

 

(We try to be historically accurate, and everyone is very keen on delving into the arcane secrets of the past, and we get chewed out if things are not right, but as Ian suggests, each modern teppou-tai will have more or less 'authentic' material. One thing is we always use genuine guns, replicas not being permitted for firing in Japan. The crowds are generally friendly, but lurkers will come out and let you know if something isn't right.)

[Peter Bleed]

Dear Friends,

These are terrific responses. Thank you all. The Great Plains are being blanketed with a thick coat of very wet snow at the moment. A perfect day for studying these posts and getting out what sources I have in my library. Maybe I'll take pictures as well. Please let me return to this discussion in a bit.

Peter

[watsonmil]

Dear Peter,

I for one would love to see photos of your Matchlock collection. I hope you will indulge us.

... Ron Watson

[Peter Bleed]

Dear Friends,

Thank you for your responses and useful insights.

In addition to shoveling our sidewalks - twice! - I did some 'back of the envelope' calculations about what a sengoku-jidai battle might look like archeologically. In fact there are some really interesting new analyses of conflict sites of this age worldwide. I really expect that systematic study of sengoku era sites will offer the next burst of new ideas and discussion in Japanese arms and armor.

To do the archeology of these sites we will need to present - and refined - expectations about what the conflicts actually involved. Some exciting discussions are going on about Nagashino specifically. The way that matchlocks were used there and the number of firearms that were deployed are being discussed in concrete terms. It seems certain to some researchers that Oda had something like 1000 to 3000 gunners at the fight, altho the traditional number was lower than that. Oda's gunners fought from fixed positions and used rotating volley fire. The fight lasted several hours.

I bought my copy of Sugawa's Matchlock book before the translation was available so I am limited to the Japanese edition. It is a fine collectors' book. But the dating of the guns and equipment Sugawa shows seems pretty vague. Most of the equipment he shows - and certainly all of his operational pictures - date from the Edo period. Still, his data seems to me to indicate that individual gunners carried their own kits of gun, fuse, cartridges, and priming flask. The cartridge boxes and bandoleers he shows make it look like a gunners' kit would include 20 or so rounds. Still, Nagashino was a 'balls to the wall' event. I just can't believe that Oda wouldn't have provided extra ammo. So,... let's say each gunner might have shot 50 rounds over the course of the fight.

I can find nothing on the regularity of the guns used by Sengoku forces. So Let's go with Ian's 5 momme as the "average" caliber. A 5 momme ball weighs .6626 oz so a gunner firing 50 rounds would leave just over 2 pounds (call it a kilo) of lead. And by that logic, the battle should be reflected by 1 to 3 tons of lead distributed across a front 100 meters deep and less than a klick long.

I didn't get any pictures taken, but the snow is continuing. Mebbe tomorrow.

Peter

[watsonmil]

Dear Peter,

You must remember that Oda Nobunaga ordered his army's guns, ... therefore most probably of uniform caliber. It was only later ( I'm sure exceptions exist but generally ) in the Tokugawa era that INDIVIDUAL Samurai ordered guns on a private purchase basis, ... giving us the great varience in caliber and style of the firearm, and thus the individual requirement for owning your own bullet mold, powder flask, and other accruments. ONLY relatively wealthy Samurai could afford firearms, ... and the lowly Ashigaru was relagated to the Lord's arsenal of standard firearms. The later Edo era firearms were more for show, and target practice than for actual combat ( the wars had pretty much ended ). Virtually every firearm I have examined over a great many years have been of the Edo period. There was a discussion earlier as to where all the pre-Edo firearms disappeared to, ... the answer is simple, ... KOREA. Hideyoshi's Invasion armies wrote countless letters home asking for more firearms. I am quite sure that Korea took up the majority of pre-Edo firearms rather than simple loss or destruction, or collection by the authorities.

... Ron Watson

PS. Eric is quite correct in stating that the NMB is the greatest resource for information on the Tanegashima in the English language. Brian ( the BOSS ) and other interested members should justifyably be VERY proud of this fact.

[Bugyotsuji]

Peter, please be careful using Mr Sugawa's books. They are packed with information and great for the table-top, but allegedly full of inaccuracies, not to mention the mistranslations and lack of editing. Perhaps you are safer off with the Japanese version. (Book 1? Book 2?)

[IanB]

Peter, Here are a couple more thoughts to add to those already expressed. Nagashino is rightly considered a pivotal battle, but what seems to be the most essential factor is the Rengogawa, hardly a river but a steep sided stream running across the battlefield. This is clearly depicted on the screens of the event. The combined Oda / Tokugawa force, who knew full well that Katsuyori relied heavily on his cavalry, positioned their barracades about 50 yards or so from it. The result was that the Takeda cavalry were unable to build up sufficient speed for a charge, being brought to a virtual standstill whilst they urged their horses down the gully at the ideal range for the gunners to do their job. Those Takeda troops that did make it to the opposition were held at bay by infantry with long yari pushed through the barriers whilst others, who emerged through gaps, attacked their flanks.

The analysis of the equipment found on Henry VIII's ship the Mary Rose that sank in 1545 has allowed us to gain some insight into military thinking at that time. Hundreds of longbows were recovered, stored in boxes, as well as a number of musket stocks, the barrel and locks having totally decayed. By chance the Royal Armouries collection retained from that period a snapping matchlock with exactly the same shape of stock. State papers show that a batch of these guns had been ordered by Henry from a supplier in Italy. A replica of these guns was tested against steel plates, as were a longbow of a similar draw weight to those found on the ship and a very powerful crossbow. We found that the bow and crossbow were both unable to pierce 2mm mild steel plate at a modest range but that the musket could easily pierce 4 - 6mm. Essentially the penetrative effect of the bullet was an order of magnitude greater than the arrow or crossbow bolt. From this it has been concluded that the soldiers aboard the ship were divided into archers, whose task was to take out the unarmoured crew of opposing ships, and gunners whose targets were the enemy troops wearing armour.

I have never seen any mention of the number of archers at Nagashino but presumably they were there in some number. Their target I suggest would be the Takeda horses, forcing their riders to continue to the opposition on foot if they survived the fall of their mount.

Interestingly, and by the by, the Royal Armouries Museum owns one of Takeda Katsuyori's armours - given by Tokugawa Hidetada to King James I (and VI). This was presumably obtained when Ieyasu captured the Takeda province of Kai in 1582.

Ian Bottomley

[John A Stuart]

We have had a fair amount of discussion about this at SA in 2007. Here is some info from that.

 

The Shinchokoki states that the combined Tokugawa-Oda army had 1000 guns (not 3000 as claimed in the standard version of the battle). The Takeda army attacked in five seperate waves and the "majority" (kahansû) of attackers in each wave were cut down exclusively by gunfire. There is no mention in the Shinchokoki of the use of any weapons other than guns by the Tokugawa-Oda army. There is also no mention of the gunners "(firing) in volleys so as to maintain a constant barrage," as Geoffrey Parker puts it in his description of the battle of Nagashino quoted earlier. The shinchokoki speaks of the Takeda as skillful horsemen and refers to thier use of horses in battle. But we cannot assume that all or even most of the Takeda attackers were mounted. In view of the composition of contemporary armies in terms of calvalry and infantry, as already discussed, it seems likely that most of them were on foot.

 

There are two Shinchou kouki publications, and in one of them the number 1000 on teppou is used, and in the other the number 3000. Some Japanese historians states that the first one is correct, and that the later publication raised the number to 3000. But I have another source 'Nagashino nikki' (written by a samurai that took part in the battle) that states Oda 3000 teppou and Tokugawa 500. It is also difficult to believe that Oda Nobunaga had only 1000 teppou in 1575. He controlled several production sites on teppou, and he was on very good terms with the foreigners that came to Japan; for trade.

 

This is interesting. http://nobunagagaku.com/cn16/essey02_001.html#/2

[Bugyotsuji]

One other contributing factor which came up not too long ago for reconsideration was the rain on that day. Takeda figured that with rain the Oda guns would be useless, but they found ways to keep their powder dry. I can't remember where I read this, though... but it should be there with a search.