The Digital Shinsa...its around the corner

[Ford Hallam]

Really? Suggesting that someone's interpretation of something might be inapplicable or inaccurate is not in anyway the same as saying they are lying. As a practising Buddhist I would have thought that distinction would have been obvious to you. :?

[David Flynn]

As I said Semantics.

[Ford Hallam]

Sorry David, I don't buy it. Go and sit on your cushion...in the corner, facing the wall

[David Flynn]

Shall do.

 

P.S.

I've never claimed to be a good Buddhist.

[Brian]

Close to lock....only open because I would be interested in the tests....which have virtually nothing to do with Borax anyways. And whether it was used or not...I am sure few care about.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Gee Brian, why lock the thread? We're not the girl guides and no blood has been spilt. It's just been an "enthusiastic" debate is all. I'm surprised that you feel sword collectors are such a delicate lot.

 

But I can take a hint. If it's considered bad form to challenge crap ideas here I'm happy to deride them from the safety of my own forum

[cabowen]

Below please find a section taken from Omura san's site on WWII era swords and their manufacture.

 

The section below can be found here:

 

http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_099.htm

 

While I do not have time to do a complete translation, I will translate the relevant sections:

 

 

将校用軍刀の研究第3報2 (Officer's Gunto Research)

 

　A．玉鋼及卸し鉄の鍛錬(人力) (Tamahagane and Oroshigane Forging)

 

　　　マクリ及甲伏にては1振分として4〜4.8㎏を準備し、本三枚にありては刃鋼として1.2〜1.5㎏、皮鋼として2.2〜2.5㎏の準備をなす。

　　　鍛錬回数3回毎に採取せる分析資料は前記の量目中に含まれ居るものとす。

　　　玉鋼を火床に入れ700〜900゜に加熱し槌にて煎餅状とす。これをヘシ鉄と謂ふ(第6図)。重量450〜500grの大型のヘシ鉄1枚を造り、

　　　これを包丁鉄にて火造りしたるテコ鉄に鍛接し(第16図)、この上に小型のヘシ鉄を正しく数層に積み累(かさ)ね(第17図)外面を藁灰又は

　　　日本紙を水に浸したるものにて包み、その上に粘土水をかけ火床に入れ、約1,000〜1,200゜に加熱す。これを積み沸しと謂ふ。　　　

　　　刀匠の流儀によりては積み沸しをなさざる者あり、又、1振分のヘシ鉄を一度又は二度に積み沸しを行ひ、各層間に鍛着剤として硼酸

　　　を使用する者あり。積み沸し作業に於ては最初数回軽打し、次第に強打してヘシ鉄を鍛着せしめ、又、上面及側面より槌撃し概ね

　　　六面体の鋼片とす。癒着したる後は約1.000〜1.100℃に加熱して鍛錬を開始す。これを本沸しと謂ふ。

　　　炭素吸炭量適度なる卸し鉄を鍛錬する場合には積み沸しを行はず大型ヘシ鉄数枚を造りて本沸しを行ふ。

　　　鋼片を火床より出し、横に鍛伸して上下面が原の1.5〜2倍の面積となりたる時、藁灰又は粘土水を塗りて再び加熱し、縦に鏨の切目

　　　を入れ(第18図)、金敷に水を流しその上にて強打す。この時は大なる音響を発して表面の酸化鉄を四散せしむるを以て(これを水打と

　　　謂ふ)速に切目より折返し必要に応じ硼酸を与へて強打し癒着せしむ。この作業を折返し鍛錬と謂ふ。

　　　

The statement in bold translates as:

 

"when folding (to weld) it is essential to add borax in order for the weld to adhere"

 

So we have John's first hand account, my first hand account, and now this statement from Omura, who incidentally has probably done more research into WWII era swords and their manufacture than anyone else, using native language sources-both written and personal.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Chris,

 

apart from the obvious fact that WWII manufacturing processes are not really going to tell us much about pre-1600 sword forging technique doesn't the fact that Omura says it's essential to use borax (when we know tamahagane doesn't actually need it) rather imply he's talking about steel other than the traditionally produced stuff?

 

this statement from Omura, who incidentally has probably done more research into WWII era swords and their manufacture than anyone else, using native language sources-both written and personal.

How did the discussion shift to WWII sword manufacture anyway?

[John A Stuart]

I wish I had split this thread earlier since I love the debate about fluxes and am also interested in what the metallurgical tests might reveal. Good luck on that aspect; any data is a good thing. Just one note though, we must allow others' opinion to be voiced and present our opinion(s) without trampling that right. John

[Ted Tenold]

I think this is a good subject and would like to see the discussion carry. Although I hope not to poke the Hornet's nest, I would like to present points of consideration;

 

There is an clear difference in both steel appearance and forging characteristics between the Koto and subsequent Shinto periods. We do know that foreign steels began their major integration at about the same time. Is it reasonable to presume that foreign forging methods and materials may also have been concurrently introduced and integrated ?

 

I can't seem to find it at the moment, but the NBTHK discussed the subject of some contemporary smiths using steels other than Tamahagane during production. These alternative sources were being implemented as a measure of "flavoring" to promote attractive aesthetic elements to the end result . If I remember correctly, one of the steels mentioned was Swedish Steel, which has a reputation in the industry for being very pure. How would this be clearly isolated and or identified when it blended with pure Japanese steel? How could/would it affect the reading?

 

The only time I've ever seen borax employed in the forging process was to attach the handle to the plate (teko) prior to stacking the tamahagane fragments on top of it. I believe borax and other fluxing agents have a place in the forge, but they neither extremely rare, nor a wholesale application. Like everything else, it's a tool with a specific task, utilized within a particular criteria, to achieve a desired result.

 

I remember reading a very old story translated for me by a friend in Japan when I was researching Shikkake Norinaga. In the story, Norinaga was described as using rice hulls instead of pine charcoal for fuel during heating of the blade. While we can challenge the validity of the story as just a story, it is very curious that it was mentioned as a major part of the story and we must consider that there may be some measure truth to it. Who among the sword community has heard of such an alternative. While the processes are generally the same, the details, materials, and methods can vary in ways that leave visial traces in the individual works that may be unexplainable anomolies in elemental examinations.

 

While interesting, I tend to think the data that such a test yeilds will be of limited value in the context of "kantei". Like most things in science, the answer to one question leads to three more questions. In light of the lack of any period "control" specimens of absolute known composition, origin, working methods, etc., data will be somewhat blurred by those details that cannot be absolutely established. We can't ask a smith from Keicho what he used. Heck, Suishinshi Masahide was exploring the craft for answers he didn't even have, and 200 more years have elapsed since. We're still grasping for answers of origin dates, developmental dawnings, and whether there were one or two generations of a particular smith, and now we're going to identify if, and what kind, of flux was used?

 

Again, all very interesting, but even if one particular smiths work is uniformly tested, the data should be examined and held in the context it is; subjective.

[cabowen]

Hi Chris,

 

apart from the obvious fact that WWII manufacturing processes are not really going to tell us much about pre-1600 sword forging technique doesn't the fact that Omura says it's essential to use borax (when we know tamahagane doesn't actually need it) rather imply he's talking about steel other than the traditionally produced stuff?

 

Do we really know that all tamahagane does not require it? Have thorough tests been done using different tamahagane samples at different heats?

 

He breaks down the manufacturing method by steel type. The first section, which I have attached above, specifically addresses the techniques used for "tamahagane and oroshigane", so no, it is quite clear he is not talking about other steels. If you look at the link, you will find he discusses other steel after tamahagane and oroshigane.

 

How did the discussion shift to WWII sword manufacture anyway?

 

I posted this info because you have consistently said that borax was not, and is not, used in forging swords. Obviously it has nothing to do with the question of historical use but addresses the issue of whether or not it is used in modern times, as John has witnessed, and as I too have seen.

[Ford Hallam]

What I said was that we have no actual evidence that borax was used in the past. I also demonstrated that the Portuguese hypothesis has no basis in any evidence either.

 

I did point out when I quoted Pierre that borax is used in various forges for some jobs but that it use with tamahagane was avoided. The reasons for that Pierre also described.

 

I may well have to concede that in fact borax has become a part of contemporary swordsmithing practice in some circles but, as I've said, in my experience and understanding from conversations with smiths borax simply doesn't feature in their approach. We clearly mix in different circles.

 

But you'll forgive me, I hope, if I wait a little while before conceding the point until I get some sort of statement from the Japanese Swordsmith's association on the use of borax in traditional processes. I'm sure we can take the opinions of a handful of Mukansa and Ningen Kokuho has being reasonably reliable, don't you?

 

That there is an undeniable change in the appearance of blades from the Koto to Shinto periods is understood. However, if it was a simple matter of the adoption of borax that would account for this wouldn't it be the very first thing contemporary smiths would stop using if they were intent on recreating Kamakura steel jigane?

 

On a slight tangent to steel making I might point out that borax was certainly being used by one family of metalworkers at the start of the Edo period. I refer to the Hirata family and their enamel work. Borax is an essential ingredient of vitreous enamel. that the "secret" of shippoyaki stayed with this one family for almost the whole of the Edo period is perhaps revealing.

[cabowen]

But you'll forgive me, I hope, if I wait a little while before conceding the point until I get some sort of statement from the Japanese Swordsmith's association on the use of borax in traditional processes. I'm sure we can take the opinions of a handful of Mukansa and Ningen Kokuho has being reasonably reliable, don't you?

 

You are aware of tatemae and honne aren't you?

 

I will take my own personal observations over any public statements made by Japanese authorities any day....

 

Your mileage may vary.....

 

As I have said, there are a lot of things done in workshops that are not talked about or admitted to....There was a lot of talk some years back about smiths adding denkai tetsu to their billets for the swords submitted to the swordmaking contest, which would be a violation of the rules. Everyone knew it was being used and it was often discussed in private but never publicly. I almost blew my water all over the table when, at the awards ceremony, Gassan Sadatoshi, in presenting the awards, said in regard to one winner that several smiths had told me was using denkai tetsu, "it would be good if you could bring out the natural characteristics of tamahagane a bit more"....That is about as direct a public statement as you will get in Japan....

 

I am not saying that you will not get a straight answer, just that you will get nothing but the "party line"....

[John A Stuart]

"tatemae and honne", face and motive. FYI, John

[cabowen]

"tatemae and honne", face and motive. FYI, John

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Honne (本音?) refers to a person's true feelings and desires. These may be contrary to what is expected by society or what is required according to one's position and circumstances, and they are often kept hidden, except with one's closest friends.

 

Tatemae (建前?), literally "façade," is the behavior and opinions one displays in public. Tatemae is what is expected by society and required according to one's position and circumstances, and these may or may not match one's honne.

 

The honne/tatemae divide is considered to be of paramount importance in Japanese culture.[1] The very fact that Japanese have single words for these concepts leads some Nihonjinron specialists to see this conceptualization as evidence of greater complexity and rigidity in Japanese etiquette and culture.

[cabowen]

Found this report on the Japanese smith Enomoto Sadahito, son of the deceased mukansa and Gassan Sadakatsu student, Enomoto Sadayoshi, who came to the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse, WI several years ago to give a workshop on Japanese sword making. This report is on Dan Fogg's web site. Dan is very well known in knife making circles:

 

http://www.dfoggknives.com/workshop.htm

 

 

"During his demonstration Mr. Sadahito made initial welds on a billet. The main differences aside from the steels and charcoal fire was his use of rice straw ash as a coating on the billet. He would roll the billet in the ash prior to returning it to the fire for reheating. Between the folds he sprinkled borax for his main flux."

 

There is even a picture at the web site of Sadahito applying borax to the billet....

 

I have spent too many hours to remember at the Enomoto forge and this in one forge where I saw borax used as a flux.....Here is proof of its use by a Japanese smith....

[cabowen]

Also found the following:

 

The History of Japan: together with a description of the kingdom ..., Volume 1

By Engelbert Kaempfer, Simon Delboe, Hamond Gibben, William Ramsden

 

"1690 Borax Sublimate and Borax are imported by the Chinese. I met however with two sorts of Borax growing naturally in Japan but they are so throughly mixed with heterogeneous substances that the Inhabitants don t think it worth their while to pick them up"

 

So it would appear that there was imported borax in Japan by 1690 and it is possible, due to the naturally occurring borax present in Japan, for it to have been used earlier....

[Ford Hallam]

Well, Chris.....as you've now suggested no answer from Japanese authorities can be trusted we may as well just stop with the pretence of trying to gain a better understanding of the truth. For every example you care to offer I may now also fairly counter by suggesting that what we see it not necessarily the truth but merely what we are supposed to see.

 

Well played :D You've effectively denied any and all contradictions to your views by invoking honne and tatemae.

 

No matter what I might present as evidence from even the most august authorities you can will claim they are not being honest.

 

I have my own personal observations also...informed by 30 years as a practising craftsman. Honne and tatamae, aside I know the conversations I've had with various craftsmen (frequently not entirely sober....) were expressions of mutual respect and honesty. I happen to trust the words of the men who've welcomed me into their world.

 

In any reasonable scholarly debate your tactic would now render your argument utterly invalid...but play your game as you see fit. I tire of your pathetic contortions.

 

good night all,

 

fh

 

This report is on Dan Fogg's web site. Dan is very well known in knife making circles:

 

That's Don Fogg btw...not Dan. Evidently not so well known to you then.

 

 

"1690 Borax Sublimate and Borax are imported by the Chinese. I met however with two sorts of Borax growing naturally in Japan but they are so throughly mixed with heterogeneous substances that the Inhabitants don t think it worth their while to pick them up"

 

So it would appear that there was imported borax in Japan by 1690 and it is possible, due to the naturally occurring borax present in Japan, for it to have been used earlier....

 

"the Inhabitants don t think it worth their while to pick them up"

 

So NO...it seems unlikely that the inhabitants recognised their possible use....

 

And 1690 is a long time after the mid 16th cent. I fact there's a reliable analysis of a ceramic glaze that reveals the use of borax around 1690 in Japan also ( it's quite a rare bit of evidence however)....this doesn't in any way prove a widespread uptake of borax by swordsmiths though.

[Adrian S]

G'day Ford and Chris,

 

My apologies to you both. In reading my earlier posts I have realized that yes I have made some strong assumptions with no real basis in fact. Too excitable I guess. It is funny how the human mind works because I have had some hunches and assumptions about the assimilation of mainland technologies into Japan for so long that in the end my mind almost accepts them as concrete facts. That being said, the information and arguments that have come forth are exemplary and have inspired new trains of though and new directions for my research.

 

Its too bad we don't have a forum here for the "hypothetical and the hypnotical" where debates can take a lighter approach but I guess we may be getting into too many crackpot theories. I would really like to get some thoughts and research from others concerning naturally occurring properties found in clays local to sword manufacturing centers. As had been pointed out, we may be barking up the wrong tree.

 

I will open a new thread with the trial results and then we will all sit back and either go "wow" or "what a shame that didn't work" :lol:

 

Until then I had better get back to doing some work and paying attention to my new wife.

 

cheers,

[cabowen]

I don't need to hear from the JSA- you do. I don't care what they say, or what some anonymous blurb from Hitachi Steel says, or what Pierre says, because I have seen it used on numerous occasions with my own eyes.... I also lived in Japan and interacted with these people enough to know the difference between the party line and what really happens....If you want to know what really happens, visit the forges of a few dozen smiths like I have....or believe the eye witness accounts given here....or not. It matters not to me if you don't believe.

 

We have been presented with three eye witness accounts as well as a description from the top researcher in his field, all who claim that borax is used by at least some Japanese smiths as a flux. That should be more than enough evidence for all but the most stubborn....Some people just like to argue, some can't admit when they are wrong....

 

Furthermore, I have cited a book wherein the authors claim borax to have been imported into Japan from China in the 17th century. They also make mention of seeing native mineral borax in Japan.

 

So it seems that indeed, there was a source. Looks like it is indeed possible that borax was used as a flux historically as well as in modern time.

 

I look forward to seeing the results of Adrian's experiments.

 

And you were doing so well there Ford until the "pathetic contortions" tantrum....

[Adrian S]

Hello All,

 

Since my wife is back her expert internet research skills found these pages. The first page seems to be some Japanese sampling and results. The second page may only interest some

 

http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_034.htm

 

http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_130.htm

 

My rudimentary skills at translating with Babelfish and her help makes me read that copper may be a good prospect for an indicator. Even though this sample size is very small, it does show some promising figures. I was never thinking of a Nambokucho barrier, but that prospect would be interesting indeed. It would be interesting to see what a large cross sectional database would yield. Any of our Japanese readers like to comment on this information?

 

 

cheers,

[cabowen]

The first page gives the elemental analysis of a small sample of blades, from koto onward. The second page gives an analysis of different iron sand ores and discusses the tatara process and the processes used in Europe for producing iron/steel.

[Adrian S]

G'day Chris,

 

Take a look at the trade map on the second page. Can you make much out of that? It seems to show different sources associated with different time periods. If it does I'll get my wife onto translating the whole map for me.

 

Also, adding weight to the "B word" debate is this information. Don't know if this link will click through, may need Brian's help. It suggests the use of animal fats for storage and the dominance of the trade by the Dutch starting in the 17th century. Scroll up the page too, it describes a little about an introduction date of the "B word" into China of just after 762A.D. Hmm... the plot thickens

 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=imMJJP5 ... ry&f=false

 

cheers,

[bone]

Any timetable on when the results might be coming?

Great debate. Thanks for not shutting it down Brian.

[Ric Furrer]

Hello All,

I was at that gathering in LaCrosse with the borax welding...surprised me as well.

 

Question:

Does anyone have the book Nihonto no Kagakuteki Kenkyu (Scientific Research of the Japanese Sword) by Dr. Tawara Kuniichi that they wish to sell?

If so...please contact me. ric@doorcountyforgeworks.com

Thank you,

 

Ric Furrer

Sturgeon Bay, WI

[Ric Furrer]

Just to muddy the waters.

At the LaCrosse event there were some of the best smiths int he US attending. We asked about the white powder and were told it was "salt". Several of us tasted the powder to check for borax..anyone who welds with the stuff know the taste...it was borax.

I asked specifically what it was via the translator and it took 30 seconds of talking to again return with "Salt". When pushed and told it was borax there was a shrugging and again the word "salt" was mentioned.."it is salt".

 

This could have been an error in translation or understanding or many other possibilities, but in the end..no matter the terms...the flux was borax with a dip into the straw ash following. I believe I still have a scar on my face to prove the fact...you see I did not see the white powder the first time and was sitting just to the left of the powerhammer...when I weld with just straw ash I get no violent ejections of material..so I was expecting none...Enomoto even warned me just prior to the blow, but I KNEW BETTER you see....I was better prepared the second time.

 

I am sure Bill Fiorini could have offered supporting evidence to what Bowen is saying, but all we have of Bill's knowledge our own memories. Though he and I spoke of flux more that once before his passing.

 

I know I work differently depending upon who is watching, what they have come to see and what flavor I wish to leave in their mind when they go.

 

Ric