Newcomer To Collecting Tsuba

[eoskins]

To All

 

Greetings. My name is Ed and I'm from Asheville NC. I'm just starting on my journey with collecting Tsuba. Presently I do not own any Tsuba and am gathering information. To date I've-

 

1. Subscribed to this message board.

2. Use Richard Steins web page for occasional novice level reference.

3. Purchased Harry AFU Watson's Nihon To Koza Volume VI Kodogu Part 1

 

I'm presently trying to learn the technical language of Tsuba's (AFU) and attempting to refine my scope/tastes of which types of Tsuba to start collecting. I respectfully solicit from members of this discussion board any and all suggestions/comments/ideas/questions at this time.

 

So here goes (and excuse my ignorance)-

 

1. I like the round solid maru gata types of Tsuba's

2. I like the ko-nara or shin-nara style of depictions

3. I like the Edo Period

 

My questions based on the above preferences are-

 

1. Who were the most prolific makers of this type of Tsuba

2. What can I expect for a cost range for decent examples

3. What fair/reliable dealers are available that most collectors use

4. What strategies are recommended for starting a collection

 

Sorry for the long message but I need a lot of help before I go sinking a lot of money into this hobby over the coming years.

 

R/

 

Ed Oskins

Asheville NC

[Rich T]

Good choice tsuba ( I say that with all biasty LOL) I will offer my opinion only and try to answer your questions.

 

My questions based on the above preferences are-

 

1. Who were the most prolific makers of this type of Tsuba

2. What can I expect for a cost range for decent examples

3. What fair/reliable dealers are available that most collectors use

4. What strategies are recommended for starting a collection

 

1: Who were the most prolific makers of this type of Tsuba ?.

 

Tough, everyone. You did not say if you preferred Iron or Soft metal tsuba ?. Edo period tsuba are, generally like all things Nihonto related, poorer than earlier tsuba of the Muromachi/Momoyama period. There were of course excellent examples and schools in the Edo period but there were many more lesser gifted craftsmen than there were gifted. The first 100 years of the Edo period saw most of the truly excellent work, the long the period went, the more the quality fell off. If you like Nara style tsuba, try also looking at Kaneie, Shoami, Umetada and Choshu.

 

2: What can I expect for a cost range for decent examples

 

Remember that the tsuba you see in books are generally high end pieces and these would cost. Anywhere between $1000 - $50.000 and more. Good Nobuie 1 tsuba sell more often than not for $20,000 to $100,000 and there are many that are Juyo papered. Kaneie, the same. There are many tsuba on Ebay and the likes, and a lot of them are ok, but many more of them are just rubbish. I wrote an article on tosogu.com recently you might want to read.

 

http://tosogu.blogspot.com/2006/08/modern-collections-where-are-they_15.html#links

 

There are also links at the bottom of this article I suggest you explore, particularly Jim Gilbert's. Your budget is going to drive your purchase style but more on that later.

 

3: What fair/reliable dealers are available that most collectors use

 

Have a look at the links page at the top of the board, they are all good dealers. I buy ALL my tsuba from Japan with Ginza Choshuya and Seikeido at the top of my list and about 3 or 4 other stores following closely behind. Do not be afraid to email Japanese stores with questions as many of the dealers speak excellent english. Personally, I stay away from AOI Art. In the US, Andy Quirt, Fred Weisberg are both good dealers with a good range of items and excellent reputations.

4: What strategies are recommended for starting a collection

 

Study and take your time. If you have a small budget and maybe you can spend $500 on a tsuba, and lets say you can do that every 2 months. Then that's fine but only do it about 6 times is my advice, then, wait an extra 2 months and buy $1000 tsuba, You will immediately see the difference. you will slow your collection rate but quality is paramount. If signed, try and buy papered and stay clear of big names at the beginning without papers, no matter how convincing the sales people may be. Go to shows, your sort of in the middle of two big shows every year, on in New York, the other in Florida, try and get to these, go to the tosogu lectures and see items for sale, and meet the old boys.

 

Take your time and buy more books. Another English book to look for is "Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study",, by Kazutaro Torigoye and Robert Haynes from the NCJSC. It is out of print at the moment but I believe they are doing another run ?. Also many Japanese books have english captions.

 

http://www.ncjsc.org/ncjsc_library.htm

 

Everyone has their own ideas about how they collect Ed and you won't be any different. All I can really suggest is talk to people, read books, take your time and enjoy.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Bungo]

" . I like the round solid maru gata types of Tsuba's

2. I like the ko-nara or shin-nara style of depictions

3. I like the Edo Period "

 

then you may want to check out the Mito and Nara school................

 

 

Milt O

[eoskins]

Thank you so much Richard for your experience and comments. I would very much like to continue our conversation. I've been studying the language of Tsuba for awhile today, so here goes-

 

I prefer tetsu-ji over kinko as I believe it's a harder medium to work with, but I don't know enough yet about the two mediums. I would imagine iron is harder to work, but then again does softer alloys give you greater detail? I don't know. What do you prefer and why?

 

I sort of zeroed in on Shaomi & Choshu schools, especially the Aizu and Shonai branches of Shaomi. Am I correct in my assumption here with the Nara style being prominent?

 

I read your article and yes I'm willing to collect quality over quantity. The pieces I eventually acquire will someday be handed down to my two sons. I'm a man of only modest means but I intend to save and spend $500-$1000 per piece and will only be able to purchase one, maybe two pieces a year. Are there quality pieces available in this range on the market in your opinion? I'm only 45 so hopefully I have many years to collect at this point. I'm in no hurry here.

 

Lastly, I do feel inclined to only purchase signed (Mei) tsuba, but what if they do not have papers? What of quality unsigned (MuMei) pieces. Can I get your opinion on all of this?

 

Thanks so much again

 

Ed

Asheville NC

[Rich T]

Hi Ed, I am an iron man, I have a few pieces that are softer but they are old. I realy only like Ko Kinko and Ko Goto and some Tachishi and Yamagane pieces, but the later Edo period tsuba that are Kinko again, for the most part are fairly poorly made. It has been commented on many time by the Japanese schoalrs who wrote most of the books available that many Kinko works were a lot of precious metal worked over very poor base plate. Again, try and find a copy of "Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study" as this is explained very nicely by Kazutaro Torigoye.

 

Personally, I like Pre Edo tsuba, in Iron and in the majority, Sukashi, but for Edo, Akasaka, Kaneie and Higo are popular with me.

 

The Shoami works you mentioned did base a lot of work on the Ko Nara tsuba.

 

There are plenty of nice tsuba around at the 1K mark. Don't be sucked in by wanting signed pieces. Most of us have far more that are not signed. The problems with mei are that if it is bad, your tsuba has grafitti that is hard to remove. and devalues it considerably. You are better off with mumei and quality than cheaper signed pieces every time. Having sad that, there are also many signed tsuba that are fine, made by smiths less likely to be copied than say the bid names. As I said before, stay away from the big guys until you have a good grounding. It wil save a lot of heartache.

 

Here are some ok expamples I found that may be to your liking. I am just fishing here of course as I do not know your tastes.

 

http://www.nihonto.com/9.3.05.html

 

http://world.choshuya.co.jp/sale/tousougu/choshuya/065/index.htm

 

http://www.nona.dti.ne.jp/~sword/tuba/g0037sisi.htm

 

http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/TSUBA19.htm

 

The prices vary as does the quality, but foro your price range, they are not too bad.

 

Of course this is all pretty subjective and as I said before, we all have different tastes.

 

Rich

[Bungo]

http://cgi.ebay.com/8015-JP-SWORD-SIGNE ... dZViewItem

 

 

here's one to wet your feet

 

milt O

[Rich T]

I have heard those papers are not worth squat and are wrong a lot of the time though that won't apply in this case I think as it is a low end Bushu piece and probably not worth faking.

 

The info on these papers is something info I got recently so take from it what you will. I am not even sure who the group is other than it is a small club, maybe in or near Kyoto somewhere.

 

Rich

[Bungo]

can some charitable characters out there please outbid me................

 

:D

[Pete Klein]

If I might add to what has been offered I have been greatly helped by my reference library and believe that it is the foundation of any collection. Without reference materials you are basically running blind and at the mercy of any seller. I know there is a plethora of material out there but where I started was the Haynes catalogs and auction catalogs from Sotheby and Christies. Haynes can be a bit difficult to come by but the auction catalogs aren't and if you get those of the more major collections you can see first hand where others have gone before and have their experience be your guide. It is important to remember though that they are not always accurate in their attributions and therefore should not be taken literally but still they are a great beginners guide. I would suggest the Sotheby London 14 July 2005 sale of the Alan Harvie collection as the best to start with. It comes up on Ebay quite often. I am currently working up a 'my favorites' list of catalogs for Rich's blogg site so check in and that might help also as there are many catalogs which have too little data to be worthwhile buying. IMHO.

It might also be recommended you take a trip down to Tampa next February for the yearly show of the Florida Token Kai. It's a wonderful show which many of the best US dealers attend and is not all that far from where you live. It is held right in the airport terminal at the Marriott so if you fly in you're there!

[eoskins]

Richard, Pete, Milt

 

Thanks to all of you for giving me ideas and direction. I'm trying to locate "Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study" by Torigoye and Haynes- Does anyone know where's a good start to locate this publication? Any other publications or on-line materials to use as reference/education? I'm soaking it all in here folks!

 

Pete, What search word would I use on e-bay to find the Sotheby catalog you specifically mentioned? Also, is there a site with details about the February show in Florida?

 

Please keep it coming guys, I've got a lot to learn and am in this for the long haul. I look forward to many future conversations with all of you. Also please check out my profile (I'm just now figuring out how to populate it) if you guys want to know a little more about me. It makes the community a little tighter in my opinion.

 

R/

 

Ed

Asheville NC

[Bungo]

join the Northern california club and I think you can a copy of the book.

 

There are 2 main paths leading to Rome ( in our case Kyoto ).........

1. quality over quantity ( if you can control the urge, hard to do with prices generally depressed )

2. Buy papered items ( for newbies that have no confidence in spotting gems in the rough ) at below market price ( not hard to do because of the economy ) .....study it and then re-sell at cost or small profits. Buy it because you like it or you'll be stuck with something you can't stand ( meaning don't buy it just because it's cheap ). I follow this path and it works generally well, so far. It allows me to fondle many types and get to decide which ones are " keepers" ( if only it can be applied to the fairer sex )

 

I am sure others have their ways.....for example, THE Mantis Dude with his famous one theme collection.

 

As Pete mentioned.....go to sword shows, talk to people . test the water, it's loads of fun.

 

Milt O

[eoskins]

Thanks Milt

 

I'll check into the Northern California Club. I've noticed a few comments in this string of correspondance that gives the impression it's a buyers market at this time. Can you and everyone else please expound on this some more?

 

Why? What are the indicators? What are the historic cycles for this area of interest?

 

R/

 

Ed

Asheville NC

[Bungo]

What are the indicators?

Ed

Asheville NC

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0019467519

 

after discounting the cost of NBTHK shinsa fee + shipping, what's the cost of this fuchi/kashira set ? 50+ ? Not Juyo material but not " junk " either.

 

just one indication price is generally down.

 

Milt O

[Pete Klein]

http://tosogu.blogspot.com/ I have listed the catalogs

http://www.floridatokenkai.com/ Information of the organization/show

 

On Ebay I'd look under 'Tsuba', or 'Japanese Sword', or specifically 'Sotheby Japanese' in this case. (I just checked and there isn't one listed at present).

 

As for market cycles I wouldn't worry about it now. As with stocks buy quality over time and it all evens out anyway. Wait until you'r a 'pro' if such a thing exists and then get into market timing, IMHO.

 

The three main shows are San Francisco in August, Tampa in February and Chicago which I believe is going to be in the Spring -- Milt will know as that's his back yard. The just finished New York Shinsa/show is not an annual event but would be welcomed of course.

[Thierry BERNARD]

Hi

 

just for information HAYNES index of Japanese sword fittings is available here : http://www.nihonart.de/ :D

[Pete Klein]

The Haynes Index is a different publication than the Haynes Auction Catalogs of the 1980's (ten in all). It is a primary reference for cross indexing fittings makers to other publications, finding historical data, and finding mei verification in other publications but it is nonpictorial and is really not intended for neophytes. The auction catalogs are well illustrated (although some may be a bit faded at times) and have very good descriptions of the pieces by Mr. Haynes who is considered by most to be the Dean of the study in North America. They are available through dealers at times but tend to get a bit pricey (look up at http://www.bookfinder.com or other on-line resources catering to the study). They do show up on Ebay from time to time and usually run ~$100 each but I have seen very few listed in the last year (number seven the only one I can remember).

[Curran]

Ed,

 

It sounds like you have started off very well, and the advice Rich, Peter, and Milt has given you is rock solid. I cannot add much.

 

Go slow. Books are a good investment. The Torigoye book is cheap from the Northern California Club. Being largely a photocopied paperback, it costs peanuts compared to most books. It may give you some brainache at first, but you will find yourself going back to it for years.

The Haynes Catalogs (#1 to #10) are good. I used them to help identify a rare tsuba today. They may be something you want to look at later. In the long run, you will want to pick them up. Perhaps not yet, as at a beginning point they are a bit expensive compared to other books you don't have yet. The irony is that I just realized today that I have 2 copies of Vol. #6.

The Haynes Index is something entirely different. Eventually you will want that as invaluable, but there are a lot of other books that will help you build a basic foundation first.

 

As I believe Rich said... do a lot of soul searching to learn what appeals to you. Even then, you will find your tastes change a bit over time. At 45, you are in the young end of the pool, so you have decades to decide what you like. I force myself to keep a small collection so that I need think about every piece. When something comes in, something has to go out. That sort of philosophy works for me.

 

Try and make it to Tampa. Paying the annual fee for the Florida Token Kai gets you into the show free (I hope that is still true!), and is about the same as 3day admission to the show. Don't be afraid to walk up to someone and start asking questions. Some of us are kooks, but many are good people. If you get a kook, politely bow out and simply go to someone else. Eventually you will run into Peter or me or one of the other guys who are happy to jabber about tsuba and fittings for hours on end.

 

Curran

[Bungo]

Ed,

 

The Haynes Catalogs (#1 to #10) are good. I used them to help identify a rare tsuba today. They may be something you want to look at later. In the long run, you will want to pick them up. Perhaps not yet, as at a beginning point they are a bit expensive compared to other books you don't have yet.

Curran

 

I bought my incomplete set ( missing 2 volumes, I think ) from Tom Helm or someone in California, seems like they found a bunch at the basement and were selling them for 120 or so........... not sure about the $ amount as it's about 3 years ago.

 

Milt O

[Grey Doffin]

Ed,

You will find information about next February's show at the Tampa Airport hotel at the Florida Token Kai's website here:

http://www.floridatokenkai.com/index.html

Grey

[Grey Doffin]

Sorry about that; they don't have next year's show up yet. The dates are February 9th through the 11th, 2007, and the location is the Tampa Airport Marriott.

Grey

[eoskins]

To Everyone

 

I'm overwhelmed at the responses recieved in such a short time. All of you are a great bunch of guys and I hope to meet you at some point down the road. Maybe Tampa is in my near future. I've much to follow up on given the amount of information in the string so far.

 

I'm presently diving pretty deep into Harry AFU Watsons Nihon To Koza Volume VI learning the technical language, schools, and examples shown. I'm enjoying learning Japanese although I'm not sure I'm pronouncing the words right! I would like to purchase "Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study" next and digest that book after AFU's book. If anybody comes across one for sale please let me know. I cannot find it anywhere.

 

Does anyone have experience with the (Kanji?) translator software? I'd like to check out the (Seikedo?) web site and others. Is there anything out there for free and is this software worth the $50 they want for it? I'm just surfing the internet and soaking it all in....

 

Again, thanks to all who have responded and please keep it coming. When I think about it this correspondance string rich in experience and advice not only for myself, but it will also serve the purpose of being a great resource to any other beginners who happen to stumble into this area of interest/collecting.

 

I have many more questions for the group but it's late and I have three boys to take to the rifle range early tomorrow morning....

 

R/

 

Ed

[Rich T]

Try Bablefish

 

http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr

 

None of these things work very well, I would however suggest plowing through my Nihonto Kanji Pages, they are a bit of a help, try the Tsuba section and the Useful Kanji section for starters, also, the Nenki and Provence sections will also be helpful.

 

http://www.nihontokanjipages.com

 

These few kanji can help you descipher what it is they are saying. The pages are an ongoing project so are never finished. I will keep updating them as I can.

 

Rich

[Henry Wilson]

This is good for crunching the kanji

 

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1R :x

[Pete Klein]

The translation of the book, 'Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study', by Torigoye/Haynes is out of print and is very difficult to find. I have asked about a reprint from the Northern California Japanese Sword Club and have been told they have no plans to reprint it partly due to the inability to reprint the pictures with any clarity (technical issue). Do keep an eye out however as 'Beginners Luck' rules!

Take care.

[Mantis dude]

Hi Ed,

 

One of the nicer things about tsuba is that price barrier is far less than swords to enter. My advice other than what was given is avoid most of sotherby and christies catalogs, other than the few mentioned. Most of the time they have only a few of tsuba pictured and the one I wanted to see usually is shown. However, the major collections like Alan Harvie aire different. I haven't been as serious a student as Rich T, but have slowly picked up some things, still have a ton and 1/2 to learn. The one thing that I am starting to really enjoy is feeling the tsuba and the plate. I have taken a jump up in the price range (hope that translates to quality). It is weird but my last purchase made me think of silk steel, best way to describe. My collecting habits are more unique in that I have a theme and hope to fill in as many schools as possible that depict the Mantis. This allows me to enter both kinko and the iron world. I'm hoping you have been to my site where you can see some of the Mito/Nara/shoami styles. Going back to the plate, in the begining I was buying Aizu shoami pieces. They look good at least at the surface. However, when you start buying the mito pieces, better quality items you start to notice a difference. Anyway good luck with it and definately use these people lots to learn.

http://www.freewebs.com/kamakiriken/index.htm

[Bungo]

Hi Ed,

 

my last purchase made me think of silk steel, best way to describe.

 

Mantis,

you are not the only one to realize this.............. John Berta'd been telling me for years to feel the iron " Fee it , it's like sillkkkkkkk ka " ( imitating his Hungarian accent ). Good iron feels like silk, except cases like Hieanjo, I suppose

 

Milt O THE ronin