newbie question on beauty

[Jean]

The Japanese sword is not a slashing weapon

 

By slashing I meant that you did not stop in the striking momentum, you carry on the movement, as in all martial arts. Slashing is not exclusive from cutting which is by the way the primer goal of a sword. By slashing with a Japanase sword, with the right technique you can severe an arm or wrist

 

In fact in the midst of batlles, like the ones during the Onin wars, it was more striking than cutting or slashing, nothing technical, rather pure strength than swordmanship hability - the result of course being the same in fine.

 

The Japanese sword is not a slashing weapon,it is a cutting weapon and its efficiency is based on the draw cut

 

That's a modern opinion but not one that prevailed in Koto time, try to do it with a Odachi or from horseback or in the midst of a battle.

[george trotter]

:

Kira [i like the Lord Kira reference] seems to be a devils advocate here. and has done his work well. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and to even express it vigorously, even when they are wrong! certain facts can be argued about the merits of various swords, sabres, tachi, broadswords, rapiers, etc. the aesthetics, the supjective may be discussed, but not argued. it is a matter of taste and beauty which is the eye of the beholder.

 

:

 

Well said Doug, I agree with what you say ...I cast Kira in a questionable light because he is a bit dishonest I think (like Lord Kira)...he is not a newbie I am sure. He has a definite position here rather than a query because he immediately argued against the responses he asked for, especially strange as I don't think he said he was being a devil's advocate. Never the less he has merit in what he says and his position is worthy of discussion...maybe he could come back as "Oishi Kuranosuke", kill off Kira, and lay his cards on the table as a new member...I'm sure we all welcome his interesting discussion.

Regards,

[IanB]

All, Here in the UK we must be the only country in which a Japanese sword is defined in law (actually it refers to a 'samurai sword' but that is nit-picking). True, it is a definition arrived at by an Member of Parliament who didn't know a Japanese sword from a bucket, but it was accepted and is enshrined in our legislation. According to that worthy, a 'samurai sword' is a sword that is 'single edged, curved, over 30" long with a handle'. So dear members, all your talk of sabres, cutlasses, cavalry swords and so forth has no meaning whatsoever here in the UK - all of these weapons are 'samurai swords' because the law says they are.

Ian Bottomley

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

That's a modern opinion but not one that prevailed in Koto time, try to do it with a Odachi or from horseback or in the midst of a battle.

 

Have you tried, Jean ?

[sanjuro]

Jean.

during the Onin wars, it was more striking than cutting or slashing, nothing technical, rather pure strength than swordmanship

 

And you are aware of this as a certainty? Some of those warriors were 16 and 17 year old youths, hardly as strong as a veteran warrior. If strength were the deciding factor then all of these youths would have died in combat yet they didnt. You have perhaps some insight into the method and practicality of using such weapons during the Onin wars? Were you there at the time? :D Just for the record I wasn't.(slightly prior to my birth).

 

My point despite the light sarcasm is that this is a supposition, not necessarily a fact. In reality a nodachi was almost impossible to wield from horseback. (And yes I have had the pleasure of training with a nodachi). It is far more devastating when used on foot because it requires a fairly wide stance that cannot be supplied by a horse in motion with a man on its back. The inertia of the blade as it was used would simply pull the man off balance and perhaps out of the saddle, assuming he didnt inflict a mortal wound on his own horse. On the other hand, a tachi used one handed from horseback actually supplies a natural arc that has inherent in it, a draw toward the end of the arc which makes it a cut. A mounted man pivots from an axis formed by the spine. If this is the centre of an arc then the arc will be eliptical as he moves his arm at the shoulder and pivots upon the axis of his spine. The dynamics of a sword in motion particularly from horseback were long appreciated by warriors prior to the Onin wars. Where do you think the later two handed drawn cutting action of a Japanese sword originated, and from which it was developed?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but we can and do make assumptions that are based rather upon intellectual reasoning than upon knowledge. This could actually be a very informative thread, but we have even in this thread seen assumptions made and subsequently proven amiss. If we are to have an intelligent discussion, then let it at least be an informed one rather than an assumptive one.

OK..... lecture over. I'll get back in my box now :D

[Jean]

Jacques,

 

Knowing your height, I would be delighted to see you draw and cut in a momentum with an Odachi

 

Now from horse back, I have a little riding practice, drawing and striking in the momentum why galoping does not appear the most practical thing to do and for you who is fond of Army/cavalry, I would just quote the Cavalry orders ""Sabre au clair, chargez" ("Unsheath sabre, charge!!!), this must have been for some reasons. :D

 

 

Keith, you who trained with odachi (which length BTW and what is your height) you missed my point which was: did you practice Iai with it? just to answer Chris saying that the Japanese sword efficiency was made on the draw/cut.

 

Concerning the use of the sword by cavalry nobody has ever said the opposite.

 

Now for the Onin war till Sekigahara, there were hundred thousand on the battle fields, Cavalry age has passed, they were on foot "soldiers".Now how many were trained in martial art or were samurai? how many were not mere enlisted men, starving farmers ....In close fighting within a mêlée of thousands people on foot shouting, screaming, believe me you rely mainly on your survival reflexes, training if any, (but it takes years to master, you know it) and when no particular skill, on strength and you strike and keep on striking just to survive

 

 

I am sure you have seen Kurosawa's movie and you know how it is (Kagemusha, Ran)

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jean, where have you seen that Odachi were made for horsemen ?

 

for your knowledge it is not so difficult to draw a nodachi

 

 

[sanjuro]

Jean.

 

which length BTW and what is your height)

The blade I trained with had a nagasa of 62inches. Overall it was taller than me, and I stand 6ft 1inch in height. The training was kata and some tameshigiri. It was not an easy blade to handle and cut with correctly. I trust you were joking about the iai.... I cant imagine a more unwieldy weapon to draw . The standard way of drawing these things (at least the longer ones) is for one man to hold the saya whilst the sword is drawn from it by the person who is to use it. Many longer Odachi were carried bare into battle for this reason. Shorter ones can be drawn in a similar fashion to an over shoulder draw, or with a bit of a stretch as a normal katana is drawn (I didnt try) Incidentally, the blade I used was a shinsakuto copy of a much older blade which I believe still exists.

It is my understanding (possibly erroneous) that odachi were not generally used by common soldiery. Their use was very limited in any case, but usually by trained samurai on foot.

Sadly, there's not a great deal of material available concerning the use of nodachi, and what is available is fairly vague.

 

I take your point about the conditions within a melee. Truly a fearful experience even for a seasoned warrior I am sure. The reality despite what we read about the willingness of the samurai to die for his lord, is that once the fighting started you would have been hard pressed to prevent the other guy from chopping you into dog meat. Saving your own hide becomes something of a priority at that point. :D

[Jean]

Yes Keith, I was joking, it was just to reply to chrisf that the notion of Japanese sword being draw/cut became in vogue in the 17th century when fighting meant duel but not in koto time.

 

Jacques,

 

You are once again caught redhanded in misreading posts. Where did you see me talking of wielding a nodachi from a horseback?

 

 

The Japanese sword is not a slashing weapon,it is a cutting weapon and its efficiency is based on the draw cut

 

That's a modern opinion but not one that prevailed in Koto time, try to do it with a Odachi or from horseback or in the midst of a battle

 

Meanwhile, I am waiting with anticipation your draw/cut (Iai) with an Odachi which was my point just above :D

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jacques,

 

You are once again caught read handed in misreading posts. Where did you see me talking of wielding a nodachi from a horseback?

 

Apologies (mes plus sincères excuses Jean) i'm a little bit too busy this time.

 

Some info here.

 

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/nodachi.html

 

Meanwhile, I am waiting with anticipation your draw/cut (Iai) with an Odachi which was my point just above

 

With your head as target ?

[Jean]

Jacques,

 

Be realistic, the time you draw and try your cut, I shall have already drawn my SW 44 Russian. :D

 

Indiana Jean

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

Cheater

[doug e lewis]

Since we are totally off the thread . I have wonderful silk painting of samurai in full Kamakura armor [o-yori?] on horseback defending himself from arrows with a naginata. From what have read this was not uncommon, though I had originally thought that the naginata was primarily a foot soldier's weapon. so much to learn in this obsession we share!!

 

Jean, your 44 Russian whatever [pistol?] is OK, but my 12 gauge pump with double ought buckshot might give you pause.

 

what happened to "Lord" Kira??

[Jean]

Doug,

 

I was referring to a 19th century revolver patented in 1869 to stay in antiques :D Though I think Indiana Jones was using a Webley probably much more recent.

[sanjuro]

Any damned peasant can fire a gun... which is why they gave them mostly to Ashigaru. Killing at a distance is reasonably easy.

It takes real skill to use a bladed weapon and a damned sight more courage in a fight. You have to look your enemy straight in the eye.

 

Now THAT provocative little one-eyed statement is bound to draw some fire......

[Jean]

It takes real skill to use a bladed weapon and a damned sight more courage in a fight.

 

And foolishness, remember "Balaclava"

[sanjuro]

Jean.

 

No... Not personally :D A bit before my time.

If I remember correctly however, the Russian guns were in fact neutralised by sword wielding heavy cavalry, The Scots Greys if memory serves, supported by Lancers and Hussars of the Light Brigade whose job it was to force a way to the guns. The same sabre wielding cavalry that Napolean Bonapart dreaded so much at Waterloo. He called them "Those terrible grey horsemen" or something like that.

I was however actually alluding to a situation where all weaponry was equal and bladed. Only an idiot would face an enemy armed with a gun when he was armed only with a sword. All of which, and the testimony of four out of six empty saddles at Balaclava proves the British to be somewhat foolhardy in war. Courageous and magnificent.... but foolhardy.

[Jean]

The Russian cannons were not neutralized when The light cavalry charged. 673 lancemen led by Lord Cardigan. 20 minutes later: 113 dead, 247 wounded .... Unforgettable movie with Eroll Flynn and Holivia de Havilland in 1936. There is a very sad poem by Alfred Tennyson about it.

[Jean]

But I agree with you, Keith:D

[sanjuro]

Cardigan and Lord Lucan were both a bit gung ho in retrospect. It was a foolish call to make light cavalry charge such a distance under withering enfilade fire and directly into the muzzles of cannon firing first cannon balls at medium range then grapeshot at close range. Of course my lords Lucan and Cardigan were not doing any of the dying were they?) Britains mistake was to have the aristocracy leading the army rather than talented field experienced officers promoted for their skill.

I just re read that previous statement........ Makes me sound like one of those revolutionary Frenchmen that Napoleon was so fond of. I certainly hope the more English of my ancestors arent reading this. The rest of my ancestors were Welsh and would probably agree with me. :D

[paulb]

For the sake of accuracy Lord Cardigan did take part in the charge, in fact he got seriously P****D off when a captain tried to overtake him in the charge to tell him he was going the wrong way.

Current comment suggests it wasnt misjudgement of Lucan or Cardigan, They misunderstood the orders sent by Raglan and charged the wrong target. It is also suggested that Lucan failed to support Cardigan (his brother in law) because they had had an argument earlier in the campaign and he was still unhappy about it!!

I think this confirms your point about aristocracy vs proffessional soldiers leading armies.

Jean

I think only the US film industry could bring together the British Battles in North West India and the Crimea. If I remember correctly Flynns arch enemy in the Khyber campaign turned up in the Crimea to support the Russians. All credit for imagination and for not letting reality get in the way of a good story!

[Jean]

Paul,

 

Much more romantic than the 1968 remake by Tony Richardson :D

[paulb]

yes Jean very true

[sanjuro]

Cannon to the right of them, cannon to the left of them etc etc.. and into the valley of death rode the six hundred. Sounds deceptively romantic.

 

Just out of curiosity, do either of you guys remember what the regiment of hussars was, that accompanied the 27th lancers at Balaclava? Since we started talking about it, I have been wracking my brains trying to remember, but I'm damned if I can recall. Was it the 11th Hussars?

[paulb]

It was the 8th and 11th Hussars together with the 17th. Lancers and the 4th and 13th Light Dragoons

[sanjuro]

17th Lancers???? Thanks Paul...... I must be getting old and forgetful. I did get the 7 right though

[paulb]

Dont worry about it Keith I only remembered because I am putting some notes together for a project which happens to start a Balaclava.

As age increases thank the lord for Wickepedia!!

[doug e lewis]

Only fire from me would be from my bow ... at a safe 50 yards.

 

I do agree, guns are cowards weapons, but there really is no chivalry in warfare. and if I have to defend myself, my lover, my dog, my friends, my land ... I will do so I any manner most effective.

though if I could kill you with a nice, sharp Masamura katana, I would prefer that. More aesthetic satisfaction; in the use of the blade not the killing; of you or anybody else. Killing wrong; of anything or anybody. Might needed -- to eat --- or justifiable in defense, but still wrong.

[Jean]

sharp Masamura katana,

 

Doug,

 

What would it be were it a Muramasa blade

[sanjuro]

Was Masamura the evil twin of Muramasa???????? :D