Tanegashima Help - Original Matchlock?

[Windycity]

I am new to the forum and looking for help. I recently acquired a very nice gun collection and one of the most fascinating is what appears to be an original Japanese Matchlock. The gun is in exceptional condition and and has been reviewed by a US guns expert who believes it is likely authentic but also admits this is not his specialty. I am attaching images below (hopefully). Distinct markings include rabbit inset on stock and marks on barrel similar to rare early matchlocks. The San Francisco Sword Society website shows a 120 caliber Tanegashima with the same barrel mark present on the barrel of this gun. Any help or even a referral to the appropriate expert would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Pat M.

 

 

 

[watsonmil]

Dear Pat,

Your matchlock ( Tanegashima ) appears to have elements of both the Bizen tradition of gunmakers ( the silver serpentine pin and the silver barrel bands as well as the circular pin holes ). The barrel however looks to be more Kunitomo in style as does the tear drop shaped trigger. If you disassemble the gun, ... I'll bet you will find a signature on the underside of the barrel. Photograph the signature and post it on the forum here for translation. It is not unusual to find a Tanegashima with influences from more than one school, particularily during the latter part of the Edo period. It certainly looks like it is in lovely condition. Congratulations on a nice aquisition. The silver inlay on top of the stock is called a MON, ... a family crest ( coat of arms ).

... Ron Watson

[Windycity]

I will disassemble the gun, get photos and update this post accordingly. May be a couple of days. Thank you so much for the assistance. Pat

[estcrh]

I will disassemble the gun, get photos and update this post accordingly. May be a couple of days. Thank you so much for the assistance. Pat

Pat, do you know how it comes apart?

[Windycity]

Eric, I will be taking it in to my gunsmith who I believe knows how to disassemble. If not, I will ask the question here. Thanks, Pat

[estcrh]

Eric, I will be taking it in to my gunsmith who I believe knows how to disassemble.

Your going to let your gunsmith have all the fun? Here is something you might like to read about taking one apart.

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9771&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=tanegashima

[Brian]

Check out the FAQ above the forum. IIRC, I added a very nice article from Piers about taking one apart, complete with pics.

I'm jealous..still looking for a nice Tanegashima myself at a good price.

 

Brian

[Windycity]

Brian, Erik,

 

Thanks again for the help. I don't know if I trust myself yet to work on such a gun though I am anxious to see what I find. More to come and thanks!!

 

Pat

[Bugyotsuji]

Pat, yes, it looks like a good clean example of a Japanese Tanegashima matchlock. Just for added interest, your pics seem (?) to show a square or rectangular cross-section to the Hibasami (serpentine) and trigger guards, indicating Ki-no-Kuni, ie Wakayama. That area was one of the first places where guns came from Tanegashima, and where a manufacturing base was set up. Negoro-ji was a famous temple there destroyed by Hideyoshi because the 3,000 monks, armed with Tanegashima, were a political threat to Oda Nobunaga.

 

You are missing (?) the pan lid, Pat. Ian told me that they can make such things at the Leeds Royal Armouries workshops in Leeds, UK, but you are located in the USA?

[Bazza]

Do we think that the serpentine has been bent at some stage of its life??? I've not seen one with the "wiggle" that this one displays. I'm betting the barrel is by a Kunitomo artisan - the bamboo-shaped flash shield locking pin is on all three of my Kunitomo guns.

 

Also, the mon is I think KASHIWA (White Oak) - I have it on one of my guns and will try and get a picture up.

 

Regards,

BaZZa

aka Barry Thomas.

[Windycity]

Pier, Barry,

 

Thank you again for the help. I will be taking some additional photos and posting early next week. More to come.

 

Pat

[Windycity]

Sooner than I thought... here are images of the signatures from under the barrel... hope someone can translate and confirm origin. Once again, thank you all!

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for the extra pics, Pat.

 

Yes, Barry, it does look like the serpentine has been bent at some point in its life.

 

It should be possible to track down the mark of the locksmith.

 

To round off the gun, the signature looks very good. As some posters cleverly guessed, especially Ron, yes, it is signed as having been made in Kunitomo.

 

Unfortunately I do not have my book of smiths with me here so I cannot give you a 100% certain reading of the smith's name. Depending on how you read that first character, Kunihide? Takahide? Yoshihide? Norihide?

 

Perhaps someone else can help?

[Windycity]

Piers, Again, thank you. Very helpful information as I continue my research. Any further help on identifying the smith and a broad range of value for such a gun would be appreciated.

 

Pat

[Bugyotsuji]

Not sure if people do valuations here on this site. Prices are depressed in Japan right now, but you might pay around 300,000 JPY over there. The US or European values/prices will probably vary widely from that.

 

I will be checking my books for an accurate reading of the smith's name when I get back home later this month. (September 23rd... ish, depending on jetlag.)

[Bugyotsuji]

Just got back to the place with the books! Your smith is listed in three sources, but unfortunately no 'correct' reading is given for those characters. Next step is to ask 'learned' people here for suggestions as to how 江州国友「源之進　珍英」 may have been read, ...from out of the several possibilities.

 

The alphabetical order within the lists suggests the compilers wanted to read the first part starting with 源 as Gen... as in Gen no Shin, or Gen no Michi, rather than Minamoto no Shin or Moto no Michi/Yuki, etc.

[Windycity]

Piers, Once again thank you for your help. I welcome any translation assistance from any board member or other expert. I will also begin to seek translation from other sources and will report back. Pat

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers, Once again thank you for your help. I welcome any translation assistance from any board member or other expert. I will also begin to seek translation from other sources and will report back. Pat

 

Pat, be prepared for anything. The fact that no-one has replied to this thread tells us something.

The main thing is that you have the name on record. There is nothing to translate as it is a place and name and kao mark. How this particular gunsmith liked to read it will only ever be a secondary factor, and it may be that no-one alive today will be able to tell you. Perhaps the best thing for you is to memorize the characters and decide on a personal preference on how to read them, until someone comes along with a more convincing reason to correct you!

 

(For example if you referred to him as "Go-Shu, Kunitomo, Gen-no-Shin, Kunihide", just for your own records, how many people would be able to correct you?) :lol:

[Bugyotsuji]

PS What is written against the name is that Gen-no-Shin Kunihide (however you read his personal name) is progeny of, or descended from Gen-no-Shin, who was the first of a line of Kunitomo smiths using this family name. (Ogasawara and Yasuda, Zenkoku Teppo Kaji...)

 

Further, according to the researcher Uribe, in Nihon no Teppo Kaji, p.38, Gen-no-Shin Kunihide(?), (manufacturer of a 4.5 Monme gun presently in the possession of the Nagahama Historical Museum) descended from Gen-no-Shin, who descended from Gentaro, who may have descended from Gentao, who descended from the founder of Kunitomo Group 3, Kunitomo Zenbei (sp?) who was patronized by the Oda family and has an associated date of Keicho 15 (1610).

 

PPS The mark of the locksmith seems to read Haru, 春　and the surround could be a design incorporating eight, 八 but sadly I could not find such a name in Uribe's Kunitomo locksmith list.

[Windycity]

Piers, My gun collecting has unexpectedly taken me down this new road and I have much too learn. Again, I sincerely appreciate the help and will continue my research. Without your help, I wouldn't know where to begin. Hopefully, more to come. Pat

[Windycity]

In further studying the Kamons (Mons) I have located what appears to be two Clans with the same Kamon shown in the pictures above - Nukia and Kasai... Here is the link to the Kamon document with images.

 

http://www.iaido-basel.ch/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_view/gid,12/

[Lindus]

Piers, Again, thank you. Very helpful information as I continue my research. Any further help on identifying the smith and a broad range of value for such a gun would be appreciated.

 

Pat

 

Price in the UK have dropped a little,sold several from my collection over the last year,sadly the price range sale wise is from £800 to £1200 for Teppo like yours.

Have a look at those on my site for some similar.

 

Roy

 

http://www.collectorsloot.homestead.com

[Bugyotsuji]

Those prices are closer to the dealers' auction prices in Japan. The customer would pay considerably more.

[Windycity]

Dr. Rebecca Copeland at Washington University in St. Louis asked Japanese Subject Librarian, Azusa Tanaka, to look at the marks on this gun and Azusu provided very helpful translation and interpretation. The report provided reads as follows:

 

"The script on the gun reads “Goshu Kunitomo Gen’noshin Chin’ei* (last letter unknown).”

Goshu is another way of calling Omi Province which is now Shiga prefecture in the main island of Japan. Omi Province was established at the time of the Taika Reform (645), and the present name (Shiga prefecture) and boundaries were established in 1881 (Encyclopedia of Japan).

Kunitomo Gen’noshin is a name of person, most likely male name. Kunitomo is a family name, and Gen’noshin is a given name. Kunitomo had been one of three important centers of manufacturing guns since the mid-16th century to the late 19th century. Kunitomo gunsmith group was resided in Omi Province. The first experience of guns in Japan was either in 1542 or 1543 when the Portuguese landed in Kyushu. 12th Shogun (one of the military dictators) Ashikaga Yoshiharu and his son were interested in this new firearm, gave the one received from the Portuguese to Kunitomo and asked them if they can make a copy. This was the beginning of Kunitomo gunsmith’s manufacturing guns. Later during the Edo period (1603-1868), Kunitomo gunsmith group was directly hired by Edo government, and their skills were highly recognized [Mizuhara, 1969]. There is a museum of Kunitomo gun maker in Shiga prefecture. I asked them if they have any record about Gen’noshin, but I haven’t heard back from them. It is hard to tell, unless I learn who he was or if he was a real Kunitomo family member, whether this particular gun is real Kunitomo brand or not. I read that there were some fake Kunitomos just calling themselves Kunitomo in order to sell their products.

Chin’ei I don’t know what this term means. I asked about this to the museum, I will see what they know about it and the letter I cannot recognize."

 

Very helpful report and one that could lead to additional information. I welcome and board member response to this report.

 

My sincere thanks to both Dr. Copland and Azusu Tanaka!!!

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, there is a some good background information. Great follow-up. Nicely presented and they obviously did a lot of work for you.

 

Interesting about how the very popularity of Kunitomo may have created the possibility of 'fakes'. I did not know that about the first Kunitomo gun order from the 12th shogun Ashikaga Yoshiharu & his son. Another piece to the puzzle.

 

(Glad to see they partly agree with my reading!!! :lol: )

 

PS The last character that they cannot read may be a Kao (personalized signature seal).

[IanB]

Pat, Piers, The reply from Dr. Copeland / Tanaka San needs a touch of clarification. Kunitomo may have been used as a name in the days when commoners were not allowed one, but in the context of the inscription it is a place. It was later re-named Nagahama and is at the north eastern end of lake Biwa. It is true that the Tokugawa took control over the gunmakers in 1607, insisting that guns and powder could only be made in Nagahama and that the Teppo Bugyo, in Edo, issue licenses before any order was filled (see Perrin, 'Giving up the Gun' p.47 / 58 &62). In effect this meant that all gunmakers had to move to Kunitomo to continue their work (except for those in Sakai apparently since the Tokugawa already controlled Osaka and its environs). By 1609 some gunmakers were leaving since the Tokugawa were not ordering guns. They were rounded up again, moved back to Kunitomo / Nagahama and Ieyasu ordered they be given a small annual fee whether they made guns or not. Eventually many gave up gun making and turned to other trades - exactly what the Tokugawa wanted.

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for the clarification, Ian. A quick look at known matchlock gunsmith lists will show pages and pages of Kunitomo smiths.

 

Even so, of all the guns that turn up here in the auctions or from private houses or out of collections, I would not say there was a preponderance of Kunitomo guns.

Looking at the Mei, perhaps one or two in ten of them? Sakai are well represented. Many of the guns around here (and swords) are of Bizen manufacture, which must have taken place well into Edo.

 

Naturally many of these antique Kunitomo guns will be owned by collectors living in the Nagahama area. Also in Nagahama, Hino guns produced next door in Hino will be popular, just as everywhere people like to collect objects with a local connection. We rarely see Yonezawa guns which are loved up north. Likewise Choshu guns tend to collect further west, Kishu to the east, and Satsuma guns to the south. Most of the Shikoku type guns of Awa, Iyo and Tosa tend to stay on that island.

 

All in all, if a random gun turns up, yes, I suppose your first thoughts will turn to Sakai or Kunitomo. The very lack of a strong geographical colour to a Kunitomo gun may also have made them more acceptable throughout the country.

 

There must have been continuing freedom to make all these local guns throughout Edo, or is the theory still valid that they are mostly old barrels that have been recycled, repanned, relocked and restocked in later times, post Tokugawa proscription?

[IanB]

Piers, Kunitomo was a major centre for gun production well before the Edo period, as indeed was Sakai. From what I can discover, the Sakai makers were considered superior, some Kunitomo guns being referred to as udon ju because the barrels flexed on being shot. Many of these guns would be unsigned, being part of munition orders. Various Han around the country also had their own gun makers as well as centres for powder production. If I have interpreted things correctly, it was the gun makers from around the country who were rounded up so that the Tokugawa could control gun production - concentrated at Kunitomo and at Sakai. I too suspect that many guns are Edo period productions, in fact I have a Sakai one that is rather over decorated, but many were I suspect refurbished Momoyama guns. There must have been vast numbers of good servicable but very plain guns around in the Edo period.

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

Ian, yes, that is why I enjoy discovering a gun with a rare date on it. The mainstay military gun that I use at displays was made in Higo in 1847 and this somehow gives me (personally)

a firm hold on an otherwise slippery story!

 

According to Sawada Taira (author of Old Guns of Japan "Nihon no Furuju") there are general minute changes showing evolution in gunsmith techniques, one of which is the shape and depth of the firing pan. He seems fairly confident in being able to look at a gun and ascribe an age to it. Whether he could do this with a straight barrel, stripped of any adornment, might be a good question to ask him...

 

The story about Udon-bari is/was widely told by the Kunitomo people about Hino guns in the next town along. Kunitomo had discovered the vital 'kazura-maki' binding and rebinding technique (Ni-ju makibari, So-makibari etc.) for the barrels, from spies in Sakai, but Hino could not at first get this knowledge. Poor cousins!