AGE and SCHOOL of TSUBA

[Fred Geyer]

Sorry I did not do it right

[Fred Geyer]

Sorry the my photo is bad, but I think you can get the idea..tried croping it out of the background.

In hand the steel is very wet looking and has a look that you should not forget as it is only his style of steel and with any you see in photos you will see the same kind of surface look and feel. Also note the thickness...or lack of, they are thin plates.

 

Fred Geyer

[Pete Klein]

Fred was very kind to bring this tsuba along with a wonderful Nobuie to the talk I gave at the Tampa show last February at the request of the NBTHK AB. It's a great piece with a great owner. Thanks again for your kindness.

[NihontoEurope]

Sorry the my photo is bad, but I think you can get the idea..tried croping it out of the background.

In hand the steel is very wet looking and has a look that you should not forget as it is only his style of steel and with any you see in photos you will see the same kind of surface look and feel. Also note the thickness...or lack of, they are thin plates.

 

Fred Geyer

 

Fred,

 

Nice pic!

 

What would the range of thinkness be?

 

/Martin

[Curran]

Peter,

 

Not being an NBTHK member, I agreed to stay at the table while the two other gentleman went to your lecture.

I wish I had known about the Kaneiye tsubas being there.

My loss.

 

Fred,

Thank you for sharing. I'm surprised by the use of silver. I definitely have much to learn about his work.

[Soshin]

Hi Fred Geyer,

 

Thanks for posting a photo of the Kaneie tsuba. I was lucky enough to attend the Tampa Show this year and was able to see a room full of wonderful masterpieces at the NBTHK/AB Nobuie talk. Being a member of the NBTHK all talks were free so I also attend the Nihonto talk as well. I do remember the single Kaneie masterpiece on the display table among the Nobuie tsuba.

Speaking on the issue of plate thickness I think that this is a good attribution point to look for in Kaneie tsuba as well as other early pieces. I have a Yamakichibei tsuba with a unconfirmed mei which I will send in for shinsa shortly that also displays thinness measuring only 3.0 mm at rim and approximately (trouble measuring it) 2.0 mm at seppa-dai. The strength of the iron and the yakite (heat treatment) and tekkotsu displayed on the tsuba are remarkable. The Yamakichibei mei is heavy melted with only the yama kanji being clearly visible. I will be sure to post my pink paper of death once I get it back from the NBTHK. Or is the pink paper only with the NTHK. :lol:

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Fred Geyer]

First please see page 2 for the tsuba information when I posted it the site the photo went to page 3.

I can bring it to Tampa again if you are going to be there so you can study it, once you see it and then look at the books or better bring a few of the books with you so you can hold the tsuba and look at others as well. Then you will see what I mean by the steel and the texture of it. Most of his works "that are his works" have this feature.

This will sound goofy but to me I think of it as a wet rolled pizza dough, and I know if you have never made pizza you have no idea what I mean....so better to see in hand!!

I am very bad with photos , but if anyone can post book photos of Kaneie tsuba to show them so all can see the likeness even when they have different shapes.

 

Fred Geyer

[Kevin Adams]

What an absolutely gorgeous tsuba - thanks for sharing, Fred!

 

I don't speak up much on the forum, but this discussion has made me go through all my literature to read up on Kaneiye tsuba and update my image collection. Thanks to everyone involved.

[Fred Geyer]

Kevin,

 

your photo by your name looks like a cat burrito!!..I know this has nothing to do with tsuba but I keep looking at it..time to make dinner I guess!

 

Fred

[ububob]

Interesting. With respect to tsuba what constitutes a masterpiece and what, if any type of consensus supports that?

[Henry Wilson]

That is a beautiful tsuba Fred. If you are coming it to Tokyo for the next KTK convention,it would be a real treat if you brought it along.

 

Interesting. With respect to tsuba what constitutes a masterpiece and what, if any type of consensus supports that?

I don't quite understand your question but if you are asking what makes Fred's tsuba so good, all I can say is study, study and more study......

[ububob]

Henry, the question asks only what constitutes a masterpiece in the opinion of the more experienced collectors. It has nothing to do with my good friend Fred or his very nice tsuba.

I'm up for study were you about to recommend something specific that I don't already have in my library?

[Curran]

Bob,

 

Over the years several of my contemporaries as they started and grew in their understanding wondered, "Why are Kaneiye (generally) considered masterpieces?"

Many of them have gone on to see them in person and study them, and most come back having lost their Kaneiye virginity and essentially going, "I get it now" and trying to explain to me.

 

When I see and get to study a good one in person, I'll let you know if "I get it now" and will be sure to try to explain just as others have tried to explain to me.

Several people I really respect have had the "I get it now" reaction, so I'm looking forward to losing that Kaneiye virginity.

[ububob]

Thanks Curran, I am saving myself for the "right" tsuba. :D

[Henry Wilson]

This has the potential of becoming quite an informative thread.

 

Before I start please DO NOT let this turn into a fight. If you have nothing constructive to say PLEASE SAY NOTHING

 

The following tsuba is a very famous iron tsuba by the 大初代金家　or in other words Kaneie I. It depicts deers in the ground of Kasugano Temple in Nara. I think a lot of scholars would probably hail this as the the best Kaneie tsuba and therefore arguable one of the best iron tsuba there is.

 

 

I personally think it is OK for either Kaneie as to me the deer look kind of Disney. Don't get me wrong. In my opinion it is good, in fact it is very very good and I love it and I am not saying anything other than I feel that there are other better Kaneie around, and think from what I have seen, Kaneie II is better and a lot more satisfying. I think the landscapes that Kaneie does is much superior to the figures.

 

So, what makes the Kasugano tsuba above so good? Why do scholars such as Haynes talk so highly of it? I have been puzzling over this for a while and would like any one's CONSTRUCTIVE comments that might guide me in fully appreciating this wonderful tsuba.

 

Thank you all in advance.

[christianmalterre]

Dear Henry ,

 

perhaps it is "that" due the reason this very Tsuba was/is accessible to several of the older collectors who had the possibility so to study it in own hands?

I really do not know here-just an guess...

I fully do agree it is quite one of the best known examples in western hemisphere-due this,even known western authors(who eventually saw and studied it personally equally)could referee and focus especially on this one?(just an guess here)

Equally you do have to focus that most literature accessible,known and read-is comming/written by westerners-so equally here-much "knowledge" and ideas-are those by westeners...

The Japanese literature is due the fact it is written in an somehow unaccessible way(for most of us)rather difficult to understand and to obtain-this does answer equally...

In comparence to others in fact-me i especially love the three "Monkey reaching moon" Tsuba much more-i equally do wonder here an bit-as this "deer thematics" does seem to myself(as you did write here) an bit Disney,too...but well...individual tastes are for luck different...

I but think the answer(at least an possible answer)on your´s question-is an kind of way of study-and of course accessibility?

Don´t know-how do you others think?

 

Christian

[Fred Geyer]

Bob,

 

It really is a time "thing" I guess and looking at so many tsuba.......but with that said there are tsuba from other schools, I feel just as good. As I noted in my first reply I had to sell alot of tsuba to get this one but I would NOT sell others to get it.

Each school has really great tsuba...as you own some from the Akasaka school that are top tsuba from every way you look at it.

I like to look at it as Kaneie or Akasaka Tadamasa or Higo Hayashi Matashichi and many others are all great makers and must be looked at from the school which they come from and the work they produced, as there are masterpieces out there from many makers.

 

With the question as to One tsuba being the best one out there, I think back when some of these statements were made it may have been the best one they have seen.

Today with a click of a mouse we have photos from all over the world....think back then, it was only word and letters sent and then the trip to show it off!! So I feel we have seen more tsuba in our lifes then the old masters have ever seen in 3 life times. So there statement may still hold true on some items and maybe not others just becouse they never had the chance to see the one that was just alittle better!!!!

 

Fred Geyer

[Brian]

Great thread.

I am also very interested in hearing...when we talk about great tsuba like these...is the defining point the way the iron/metal is worked...or the way the composition is done...or the way it is finished off...or all of these together? Is any of these more important than others?

It would seem to me from my few years of study that the defining feature is the iron itself. Which of course is the hardest one to appreciate from pics. Would this be a reasonable conclusion?

Without getting into the "what makes it art" debate.....

 

Brian

[Steve Waszak]

Agreed. Great thread.

 

Well, as concerns this particular Kaneie tsuba, I think it is a lot of things, really, that contribute to its being such a widely recognized masterpiece. I had the opportunity to see this guard in person at the Hosokawa exhibit in San Francisco a couple of years ago, which, needless to say, was a real treat. And frankly, it was only there, being able to see it “live” from many angles, that I was able to fully appreciate its greatness.

 

As Brian notes, one starts with the metal, which appears very finely forged. To me, if we’re talking about iron tsuba, the plate is the plate is the plate. That is, if the plate is mediocre, the tsuba is mediocre, regardless of the rest of its features. The forging and working of the plate on this tsuba is masterful, from the fine hammer work to its relative (and pleasing) thinness. This brings me to the shape of the guard. In my sense of things, one could remove all of the “decorative” features of this tsuba---take away the deer and the maple and the background scenery---and it would still be a fantastic piece. Why? Well, besides the plate quality, the shape of the tsuba---and here I mean not only its basic gata, but also its three-dimensional sculpting---together with what I think are magnificently realized hitsu-ana, result in a wonderfully well-balanced composition. The tsuba has that fantastic Momoyama breadth that we don’t see much at all in other periods. Even the hitsu-ana shaping accentuates and visually extends the width of the guard, to superb effect. I really wonder why more tsuba artists didn’t create pieces that were as wide as or ever wider than they were long/tall...

 

So among the metal quality, the working of the plate, the guard’s shape (three-dimensionally), and the particular hitsu-ana used, it is already a masterpiece in my eyes. The weakest part of the tsuba, to me, is the decoration. Not that it’s weak; it just isn’t as brilliantly realized as the rest (again, IMHO only). Having said this, however, I think what makes the relatively crudely-executed deer work in this piece is that they provide a delightful counterplay not only to the more solemn associations we would have with shrines and temples, but also to the serious “visual weight” the tsuba’s plate and shape confer on the piece. That is, against a backdrop of solemnity, two deer appear in the foreground, carefree, perhaps, but in any case rather “lightly” rendered, charmingly sculpted and placed by the artist, looking almost more like toy representations of deer than as naturally- and realistically-depicted animals. This, to be sure, is as Kaneie intended. I would suggest his rendering of the maple branch reinforces this effect, as it, too, is relatively “crudely” depicted. With such “crudeness,” though, comes strength, a strength gained from expressing the subject in something of a more essential form than if it were represented in a more delicately realistic manifestation. The deer could certainly be taken as Disney-esque (I can see this, yes... ;o), but I believe it is their “lightness” counterposed against the deep solemnity of the rest of the guard that makes the way they’re done on this tsuba work so well.

 

One last point: the Momoyama Period is seen by many as being the apex of Japanese artistic mastery (I certainly would say this). Many of the art forms of this time managed to express/capture poignant aesthetic sensibilities, among these sabi, shibusa, wabi, yugen, and, perhaps most relevant to our discussion here, mono-no-aware---the “pathos of things.” This Kaneie tsuba masterfully evokes this feeling, I think. It works synergistically, holistically, to express this pathos. This isn’t to say other Kaneie don’t achieve this, too (many do, I would say). But few if any others express the degree of light playfulness that this guard does. Even the wonderful “monkey-moon” tsuba are too immediately associated with the proverbial lesson to be learned from the subject depicted to result in a prevailing mood of lightness or playfulness.

 

This, at any rate, is why I think this tsuba is so iconic in its status as one of the very best tsuba extant.

 

But, having said all of this, I still much prefer Nobuiye tsuba to those of Kaneie. This is due, though, to simple personal preference, and not to one artist being inherently “better” than the other. I’m just not much of a fan of pictorial representation in tsuba, and enjoy more abstract or (secondarily) stylized subjects. But this is, as I say, just me. ;o)

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[ububob]

Curran, Fred and Steve, thanks for sharing your insights into a highly subjective area. :D

[Henry Wilson]

Curran, Fred and Steve, thanks for sharing your insights into a highly subjective area.

 

Don't forget Christian too :D

 

Thank you everyone so far. Everyone else please don't be shy to add constructively to this discussion.

[ububob]

I never forget Christian, I don't always understand Christian but I never forget him! :D

[Henry Wilson]

Attached are a few tsuba that might be interesting to compare. They are all by the second Kaneie where the deer tsuba is by the first.

 

Monkey tsuba.

 

猿猴捕月図

 

 

And a temple / lanscape.

 

塔山水図

 

 

One of me thinking about stuff :D (Only a joke)

柿本人麻呂図

[christianmalterre]

Dear Henry :D

 

those are great examples!

(however-here already you do see the differences in the iron...here on those pics not good to realise-but to be seen when you compare them in the Kaneie-books where the picture-quality is given much better)

 

But(to add),i think it was RKG(but i am not shure here),who did post an excellent colour Photo of an other Shodai on his personal blog(the "Gravestone" from TNM)-which is just to say-"STRIKING"....(i wonder if there´s equally an reverse-side picture available?)

(You know which one i do mean-we did talk about in past already)

 

Bob

I never forget Christian, I don't always understand Christian but I never forget him!

 

Do not worry!me,myself i even do not understand me sometimes!

[christianmalterre]

I but have an question here-

i made mine mind since longer time about this...

They all are "Plugged"-at least most we can see in literature or here on those pictures...

What may be the reson?

Weren´t they never mounted?

The Tsubashi himself did obviously intend so they should get mounted-but it seems-even if this was fact-those were not mounted for long...

It seems,that already in past-there was an very keen interest,so to collect them and fitt them with Hitsu-Ana-plugs?

In comparence to Nobuiye or YKB/Hoan-such Guards from hands of (the) Kaneie seem to be looked already,as the "Hailrooms" in those times...

So as Steven wrote in his very excellent reference here-even in latter times of Edo(as i would tend to say that those plugs nearly all date latter)those "apex in artistic mastery of Momoyama period" were still in the very highest esteem of those who did care about the artistic heritage(including the artists themself) of later times.

Why then-in conclusion-this special "artistic expression" did change?-and we do find the tendence of applying more and more thickness of the plate,declination of iron quality,soft-metal,carving...heading into that typical and classical Kinko...?

So this may be an answer what does make Kaneie Tsuba just Masterpieces.

 

Christian

[Henry Wilson]

More fuel for the minds.

 

If you are like me and have ever wondered how a Kaneie tsuba would have been mounted, the following scans will be of interest.

 

The sword (a Mitsutada) and koshirae are on display at the Nezu Museum as part of the "MEIBUTSU Treasured Japanese Swords" exhibition. The display concentrates mostly on swords but the Kaneie included was a real treat.

 

Sorry about the lack of quality of the scans but I think you can get the idea from them.

[christianmalterre]

Wonderful!

Just georgeous!

Thank you for posting this Henry!

Me

[Henry Wilson]

Glad you like them Christian

 

You raise an interesting point above about the hitsua ana plugs. I do not know why they are plugged. My guess is that when the tsuba were mounted kogai / kozuka were not required probably because they would get in the way of such lovely tsuba. Just a guess.

 

Steve's explanation above gets 10 out of 10 for sheer eloquence in my opinion. Thank you so much Steve for yet again explaining your thoughts so well.

 

Also Fred and Christian make good points in that at the time the deer tsuba was maybe the only one that the scholars had seen. An important point that I had not considered.

 

And best of all, not an argument or a nasty post in sight. Hooray!

 

Thank you all

[NihontoEurope]

: )

 

Lovely images and great education for me.

 

Thanks all for a great thread.

 

/Martin

[Brian]

Awesome pics! We are often told dimensions, but that profile pic really shows how thin and elegant the plate is more than anything I have read.

Quite remarkable.

On the plugs...I am not convinced it is purely because they weren't used. The fact that you weren't using a hole doesn't mean it had to be plugged. It was perfectly useable with the open ana in place. I wonder if there wasn't some other reason for this?

 

Brian