AGE and SCHOOL of TSUBA

[NihontoEurope]

Hello,

 

I am thinking of buying this Tsuba and I really want to know if it will be appropriate to fit it to a sword I own. I want it to match the age and region (if possible) of the sword.

 

So, does anyone of you know anything about this? It looks pretty old when looking at design and oxidation. Also, it has an unusual shape which might help with identification of the actual school. It is not the run of the mill EDO style. My guess is 1350-1450's

 

Anything helps.

 

/Martin

[christianmalterre]

Dear Martin,

 

this Tsuba is of course not as old as you eventually do expect.

It rather dates around mid,late Edo.

The Oxidation you do mention and personally estimate it´s age,does result from it´s conservation stage and used iron-not from age.

I would attribute it somehow in that direction of the Saga Kaneie´s smiths in it´s general stylism of "chinese wise picture and landscape"

Perhaps one of the Kinko-collectors here can identify it to the specific school and artist so to help you.

But for shure it does not date Nambokucho/Muromachi

 

Christian

[Brian]

It is signed.

Post a close up pic of the mei, and I'm guessing we will find it Saga Kaneie school, as Christian guessed. Nice enough work, but not ancient.

 

Brian

[NihontoEurope]

Christian and Brian,

 

Thanks for looking and the estimation!

 

Yes, I know it is signed on both sides and hopefully it says something about the maker and school. Unfortunately is is very unclear when zooming in. I will ask the owner to send me an H-res image, then it will be clearer.

 

Please wait a few days for the upload.

 

/Martin

[Curran]

Martin,

 

Probably as Christian said: signed Saga Kaneiye

 

If there be mountains (probably 3) in the background and they have pointed tops, it pretty much further supports Saga Kaneiye work before you even check the mei.

[Soshin]

Would agree with Christian the tsuba is likely the work of the Saga Kaneie school. From looking at the low resolution photos I can make out a few parts of the mei. The Saga Kaneie school of the middle to late Edo Period (i.e 1700s and 1800s) always signed in the same manner as the second Kaneie master of the early Edo Period. A frequent subject was Chinese style landscapes with people. I hope you find the information helpful. I like the tsuba just wish you would post higher resolution photos.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Mark Green]

Love that rim!!!!!!

[NihontoEurope]

David, Mark and Curran,

 

Thanks!

 

Photos will be uploaded when I recieve them (Tuesday). I will most probably buy it because I like it : )

 

/Martin

[NihontoEurope]

Howdy,

I did some research and thanks to you great input in the matter it I have come far.

 

The MEI is not very clear, but with good reference and knowledge it should be solved. The MEI might continue into one or two more Kanji, I am not sure, it makes sense if it does since it ends with "住" which should follow with a name.

 

金家 山城國伏見住? ?

Many thanks!

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37236755/TSUBA3.jpg

 

EDIT - The MEI of the tsuba is: 山城國伏見住 金家

I wasn't really sure about the way it was signed. Done some more research now. It looks real and perhaps it goes back to early Kaneie (Shodai) pre Saga Kaneie. If that is the right way to say it.

 

/Martin

[Henry Wilson]

EDIT - The MEI of the tsuba is: 山城國伏見住 金家

I wasn't really sure about the way it was signed. Done some more research now. It looks real and perhaps it goes back to early Kaneie (Shodai) pre Saga Kaneie. If that is the right way to say it.

 

After reviewing your research and looking in my library I would like to say congratulations as I think with out a doubt that you have found a Shodai Kanaei. I would estimate that it is worth probably about 3,000,000 yen at least and that it would probably go for more if you so wished.

 

PS Mods sorry can't resist

[Brian]

Henry....try and resist...try harder. :lol:

Martin, I think I am safe in saying that this is Saga Kaneie. NOT shodai and not any national treasure. Sorry, but still a pleasant tsuba.

You realize that if it was a Shodai, it would be like finding an unknown Da Vinci painting?

 

Brian

[NihontoEurope]

Henry,

 

Ouch! My heart stopped there for a bit.

 

Thanks for that research you have made.

 

I would still say it is NIDAI (99% sure). Do you have anything to back up your theory? Any digital items in the library that can be shared or internet info?

 

I have many swordbooks, but nothing on Tsubas.

 

/Martin

[Henry Wilson]

Sorry Brian.

 

Also sorry Martin too as if were a Shodai I think that 5,000,000 yen would be more realisitic. It is not a Nidai either or by anyway made by any of the Kaneie masters of the Muromachi / Momoyama period.

 

If you want to see work by the real Kaneie, have a look for the following books:

 

24255 Kaneie Tsuba S. Ikeda

14944 Kaneie Tsuba Kanbetsu Hikke M. Matsuzawa

24256 Kaneie no Kami-waza K. Yoneno

33045 Kaneie no Kenkyu T. Uemori

 

Which can be bought here:

http://www.koshoyama.com/kinko.htm

 

Real Kaneie is astounding.

[NihontoEurope]

Henry,

 

Found this (a confirmed Kaneie Tsuba) check image. What do you say about that? The rim is related...

 

Thanks for the book info!

 

/Martin

[Rich T]

Maybe I have missed it, but not once have I seen mention of the dimensions of this tsuba ? These are important markers for identifying many tsuba and should always be added when asking for help. Height and width, as well and mimi and centre thickness. Anyway, for those of us who keenly observe Kaneie tsuba, we know that genuine Kaneie guards are thin, very thin. The mimi may reach 3 - 4 mm and are usually a little undulating, but at the seppa dai, the iron is mostly hovers about 2mm, give or take. And they do go under. Tsuba of 3mm thickness and up are not genuine Kaneie. We know that there were only 2 generations who are well documented.

 

Besides Saga Kaneie, there are also many gimei pieces that are or should I say were made by Aizu Shoami artists and the likes. That is not to say they signed these pieces Kaneie, anyone could have done that at any time, it's just that the work looks for all the world like it was made by a Shoami artist. One tell tale sign for a false signature is the top (roof if you like) section of the Kan kanji of Kaneie. On genuine mei it is rounded and flows smoothly in a continuous arc. Many of the fakes have this stroke cut in 2 parts, and have a sharp bend or corner at the apex. This appears to be the case with this tsuba.

 

Martin, who confirmed this tsuba you posted ? I have never seen this type of surface treatment on any Kaneie tsuba before. I would hesitate a guess it is a much later addition, based on the tiny pic it is hard to tell anything of course.

 

Just a note on prices, 5 million yen would get you a small Kaneie. A proper sized large kaneie, I shudder to think but I know of one in Japan that was bought for over 25 mill yen some years back. It is housed in a Maki presentation box and was a gift from the 2nd Tokugawa to a person I forget for the moment. If you own the books that Henry has mentioned, this first thing apparent is that there are not many Kaneie tsuba regards as genuine by either of the only two Kaneie artists in existence. It is one of the reasons they are so revered, they are just so rare, and precious.

 

Yet they keep turning up on Ebay and on these forums.

 

Amazing lol.

 

Cheers

Rich

[Henry Wilson]

The rim shape is called kobushi gata or "fist shape". Because of its originality at the time it came represent Kaneie so the shape is quite usual for Saga Kaneie school. Honestly the one that you originally posted is definitely not the Dai Shodai or Meijin Shodai. From the pictures, it is definitely Tetsunin AKA Saga.

 

If you are really interested, Kaneie is great to study so I recommend buying some books on him as well as "Tsuba. An Aesthetic study" which gives a good summary on him / them.

 

Owning a peice by the first two Kaneie is most probably out of the question as they are near impossible to buy. However I think that these days with the economy the way that it is they are becoming available. There was a wakizashi size one last year for about 5,000,000 yen in Tokyo last year which was the first I ever saw on a dealer's table.

[NihontoEurope]

Richard and Henry,

 

I do not have all the measurements of the tsuba. My interest/request was primarily for age and secondly school if it was possible to determine that.

 

I wonder how many searched on e-Bay for this item...

 

Anyway, I have learned a lot from this and this just tells us that we are in an incredibly exiting and artistic business here were a few grams/ounces of steel is worth...much. Yet, it is a rather shy and withheld art with more than less focus than the painters which we almost can call contemporary when comparing them to the old items we have here.

 

Item bought and I guess yet another load of tsuba books to be bought.

 

Thanks all for the focus on this thread!

 

/Martin

[NihontoEurope]

One tell tale sign for a false signature is the top (roof if you like) section of the Kan kanji of Kaneie. On genuine mei it is rounded and flows smoothly in a continuous arc. Many of the fakes have this stroke cut in 2 parts, and have a sharp bend or corner at the apex. This appears to be the case with this tsuba.

 

Yet they keep turning up on Ebay and on these forums.

 

Amazing lol.

 

Cheers

Rich

 

Rich,

 

What about these items? GIMEI too?

 

http://www.shibuiswords.com/kaneiyeNTK.htm

http://www.shibuiswords.com/kaneiye3.htm

http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/TSUBA23.htm

http://www.shibuiswords.com/Kaneiye%20Tsuba.htm

http://www.nihonto.us/KANEIYE%20J.htm

http://www.nipponto-ken.fr/Images/Image ... aneiye.png

 

/Martin

[Rich T]

hi Martin, how are you ? yes. I'd be more than confident in saying not one of those is a genuine Kaneie tsuba. The one Boris listed is the best and closest of the lot though the iron lacks true Kaneie characteristics. and seriously mate, do you think that if any of these dealers had a genuine Kaneie they'd list them for $750 roflmao........

 

At best, they are mostly Saga work. There maybe some late Aizu Shouami in there as well. That first one with the NTK paper does not even look like Kaneie work. Maybe Testunin at a stretch. it's a dog lol.

 

None of these are genuine, yet they have

the mei of the first or second Kaneie masters. Ergo - GIMEI.

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[Pete Klein]

Last one is genuine masterpiece. http://www.nipponto-ken.fr/Images/Image ... aneiye.png I am not sure if it was added after Rich's post or not but he knows it quite well.

[Curran]

When I first looked, Rich had not replied yet.

Going through the links, I thought that Martin was joking or game playing?

 

But then I got to the last one, so yes 1 out of 6 looks legit. The last one is also listed in Japan on the site I have linked.

Given link after link of Martin's was a dud and I couldn't tell if Martin was joking or serious. Maybe Rich didn't bother with the last link.

 

I like Martin's original example that started this thread.

Ideally those two who have the most experience with Kaneiye could teach us a few things here, by comparison and contrast of Martin's example and some of the known Kaneiye such as those here:

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/m/201108

Scroll down to see all the examples.

 

After 12 years of study, I still have yet to hold and study an authentic Kaneiye. I have held and studied way too many of the other Kaneiye.

[Henry Wilson]

Hi Curran

 

Nice link. The pictures are very nice and top quality. If Martin could provide a picture of his tsuba that is of the same or near same quality as the ones in the link I think the difference between Kaneie I and II and the Saga school would be quite clear.

 

In my opinion the Saga did good "imitations" of Kaneie but compared to the real thing there is no comparison in the following:

metal quality, hammer work, inlay, carving, overall composition....

[Soshin]

I really like the 鐔鑑賞記 by Zenzai blog. The examples provided are just wonderful for study. It really does not matter that much that the blog is in Japanese. Being a person who likes the Saga Kaneie school and collections pieces from that school looking at the 鐔鑑賞記 blog with the real Kaneie there really isn't any comparison. This is clear looking at the quality photos I can imagine having a really Kaneie tsuba in hand for comparison.

Reflecting on this year when I was able to see some real (Shodai and Nidai) Nobuie tsuba in Feb. at the NBTHK presentation, a Nobuie masterpiece at the Tokyo Museum of Art in 2008, and also back in 2010 at the Art of the Samurai Expo at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. Each time I was awestruck by the greatness of the Nobuie masterpieces. I feel that this awestruck amazement is also true for seeing in hand a real Kaneie masterpiece from either of the two masters. Just my two cents on the topic.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

 

(Edit: Had to fix the years.)

[NihontoEurope]

Rich,

 

Yes, I saw the price as well (before posting).

 

I think it is very interesting to see other specimens and hear your comments. I know nothing about tsubas, schools or smiths.

 

The tsuba is arriving at my home in Decenmber together with the sword it is mounted to. I will update this thread with high quality images then.

 

I can see the difference in the way the MEI is executed and I understand that it is not "the real thing".

 

Also, I will thank you all againg for taking such a great interest in this.

 

/Martin

[Rich T]

Last one is genuine masterpiece. http://www.nipponto-ken.fr/Images/Image ... aneiye.png I am not sure if it was added after Rich's post or not but he knows it quite well.

 

Yeah sorry about that, the last is a classic and genuine, I wrote that reply at 6am and had not had enough coffee, and did not open that last link, or didnt see it but it is a genuine item for sure.

 

I believe (I may be wrong) that on the link Curran posted of the Zenzai blog is the Wakizashi tsuba (2nd from top) Ginza Choshuya had at the DTI for 5 Million Yen (maybe someone can confirm that ?) But that blog is run by one of the sales manages at Ginza Choshuya so he has access to many many fine items. I love that site too. They have some wicked Ko Shoami.

 

Rich

[Henry Wilson]

the Wakizashi tsuba (2nd from top) Ginza Choshuya had at the DTI for 5 Million Yen

 

I think that one is Aizu Shoami... Are we still talking Kaneie? The Kaneie, 10th from the top looks familiar. But I don't think it was being sold by Ginza Choshuya (if it is the one I am thinking of). Time for bed.

 

NOTE: 12 hours later.

The 10th from the top is in the DTI 2010 catalog and was sold by Ginza Choshuya. Sorry for any confusion on my part.

[Rich T]

LOL you of course you are correct Henry, I need my glasses checked I think. Well done on tracking down number 10.

 

Rich

[Fred Geyer]

Richard,

 

 

Ginza Choshuya had 2 for sale before the DTI, I have photos of both if you like. And not bragging but I got one, to get it I had to reduce my collection alot and I saw some tsuba that I loved go down the road, but I saw this as a once in a life time opportunity to own a true masterpiece.

 

Fred Geyer

[Curran]

 

Uhm.... almost missed the Fred G. reply.

I don't think there is a Smilies for the green curiosity I have.

Able to post pictures here?

[Fred Geyer]

Thanks for the questions,

Here are the photos of Rogan Yotsudeami ryo zu tsuba by Kaneie.

Rogan (reeds and geese) Yotsudeami ryo (a net and a fisherman) zu tsuba

Signature: Yamashiro no kuni Fushimi jyu Kaneie

size: 86.5mm x 82mm

thickness of seppadai: 2.3mm

thickness of mimi: 3mm

iron ground, takabori with gold, silver and suaka inlays

The obverse side is carved with geese in a riverside.

Kano Natsuo the famous fittings maker in end of Edo period owned and did a rubbing of this tsuba, plus made one that has the same theme.

It is shown in the book Kano Natsuo kengu shitazu soko.

NBTHK