Shinto restoration project

[shepps]

Hi, could anyone give me any advice about removing leather from a saya. I was told that to protect the original finish of the saya during the war it was bound with leather. I was also told the original saya is likely to be under the leather. Has anyone ever heard of this before? I would like to remove the leather and have a plain civilian finish. I see what looks like thick black shiny paint under a small area of damage to the leather. I have posted a pic of the sword and saya in case someone can see from the shape if it looks original. Any advice appreciated as I do not want to ruin my saya.

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Stephen Shepperd.

[Stephen]

pix did not attach the file may be too large, if you cant reduce send them to me and ill post it.

I bought a Kanesada at a local auction with a leather cover that was cracked so removed it, under it I found a nice Buke saya with mother of pearl inlay...it turned out quite nice. Some collectors like it left on but if your keeping it then id remove it, good luck.

[shepps]

I have reduced the picture and I think it works now. I have emailed it to you just incase. I intend to keep the sword for many years. It had most of the fittings replaced during WW2. I understand that some Japanese used old civilian swords with new fittings. I belive mine is one of those. When I bought it it was described as "showing considerable signs of age and use, probably shinto". I think it needs a polish, but I'm not sure. I have posted several times regarding this sword project and added pics of the tsuka, but don't seem to get much constructive feedback. I have had some useful info about my tsuba which probably has a mon on it. I'm not sure how to translate it. Thanks for your input, I will wait a few days and see if anyone else responds before I remove the leather.

 

Regards,

 

Stephen Shepperd

[Brian]

I think you probably do have a civilian saya under the leather combat cover. I have seen many older swords that were taken to war, and the original saya used with a leather cover. I have 3 of them at home.

Personally, if the fittings are WW2 era, I prefer to leave the saya as is, and maybe put the blade into shirasaya.

Of course there is always the chance that the saya is very nice under the cover, but there is just as much chance that it is cracked, broken and ruined, and once you remove the leather there is no going back.

One way to tell if the saya is civilian and older..is to feel around the top for a kozuka or kogai slot. Sometimes these are filled, but on 2 I have, you can clearly see the slot is still there.

On the last 4 combat covers I saw removed, none of the saya were restorable to any great degree, and I feel it was a step backwards. But it is a chance you take.

 

There are usually 2 methods of securing the combat covers. One is sewn down the side, and the top has snap fasteners that can be unclipped and sometimes the saya can then be removed fairly easily.

On the other method, the leather is much tighter with no snaps at the top, and the leather looks shrunk tightly on the saya. This is a more permanaent method of fitting, and on the one I have, it would have to be destroyed to be removed. Looks like yours is of the latter type, (looks nicely done too) and it would probably not be able to be removed non-destructively.

 

At the end of the day, it will have to be your choice whether or not to remove it. I know WW2 militaria collectors will cringe if you do. Small chance of a nice saya underneath...but I think far more chance it is just a dull black laquered and plain saya.

 

Brian

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Hi Stephen,

 

I think Brian's absolutely right about leaving well alone.

 

Many WWII swords (even those with older blades) were fitted with a wooden saya which was given a thin coat of inferior black lacquer before being covered in a shrink fitted leather combat cover.

 

From what I can see of your example, it also includes a permanently fitted brass band to hold the belt suspension loop. Even if you get the leather cover off and the lacquer is intact underneath (doubtful), then you would still have to remove the brass band to have a non-gunto saya and there is no way you are going to do that without scarring the lacquer and wood.

 

Get a shira saya made or, better still, get Richard Adams in Kent to make you a beautiful lacquered civilian saya.

 

Best wishes,

Simon

[Stephen]

also posted his tsuka in another thread

with little help from us, sorry I missed it.

 

http://militaria.co.za/nihontomessagebo ... .php?t=871

 

I don't think it was WW 11 fittings at all just a combat cover that let him carry it into. From my experience it looks like the brass hanger was added like Brian said, they do not always ruin saya and often slide off with little work, adding a kurikata is little work for a sayashi, you should be able to tell the quality of the lacquer from what you can see under the cover at the koguchi. Both B and S make good points but don't count out what you have, IMHO late shinshinto mounts with possible shinto blade that remands to be seen.