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Need help with signature on antique katana


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I just bought this sword (first time buyer and new to site) and would love some help identifying it. There is what I can tell some writing on the tang. There is also some writing under the tsuba that I would like translated if possible. Any help would be surely appreciated.

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What do you mean you need more pics?

Sorry...this is a Chinese fake. Nothing Japanese about it. Browse the links above the forum for good info on real swords and a section on fakes.

 

Brian

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tang2.jpg

swordblade.jpg

blade2.jpg

tang.jpg

tsubafront.jpg

 

I'm no expert I understand this, but I did see that the sword has grain suggesting folding, the hamon isn't super distinct (when it is sometimes it can denote acid to brighten temper line whoch is fraud or not real or true temper) the blade is magnetic, the tsuba and all the added stuff to the sword isn't brass (which I'm told replicas have). From my knowledge and comparisons, the blade isn't machined but seems to be genuine, which is why I bought. But, then again, I am a amateur.

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I just bought this sword (first time buyer and new to site) and would love some help identifying it. There is what I can tell some writing on the tang. There is also some writing under the tsuba that I would like translated if possible. Any help would be surely appreciated.

 

Unfortunately, this statement is one we see far too often from folks who get the nihonto "bug". Hopefully you did not pay much for this "lesson". Now that you have found this board I hope you will take the time to use its resources and to study before your next purchase.

 

Charles Brashear

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Khairete Aphelion :)

 

Please check this link and take it all in.

 

http://jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

 

I am sorry your first buy is a total fake, but dont let that put you off, when you will obtain a real one one day you will be very happy. This hobby takes study study and even more study. That is what the more experienced members of this board are trying to tell you.

 

Best wishes,

 

KM

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I hate to say this, but I've seen the fakes that are posted. They do look very fake... Now, I'm not arguing, by any means, nor am I an expert. I'm sure some of the people on these forums far surpass my knowledge and expertise. -But- I am a professional artist with an extreme eye for detail (which if I indeed did buy a fake, hopefully I can use my eye in the future). The fakes on the link I was given, by all means look fake to me. Especially regarding the fake Hamon. The hada in my photo has been enhanced with photoshop (I did this through contrast ) to help with bad photos. The hada is very hard to see in my sword normally, especially in photos. My tsuba is not brass, nor are any of the other fixtures in the sword. Maybe iron? I don't know but all the hardware is magnetic. The wrapping on my sword is done very well and not cheap like the ones in the link described. I will admit, the kissaki doesn't seem as defined as the ones on that link, but I have seen pictures of "real" swords with a soft kissaki as well. I guess I am confused at what level of detail I'm missing, and that the fakes on the website (which definitely look fake, almost extremely fake) and mine which doesn't seem soo obvious. If mine is a fake, I'm accepting this. I may be no expert, but I do know real patina. Could this be a very old fake? Is it worthless? Another thing, the rust in my sword isn't bright red or new, like the fake ones in the photo. It's darker and more brown, and doesn't wipe off.... I hate to sound as if in denial (this sword is what it is) it just to discredit as a new fake (which to me look soooo fake as far as the pictures I've seen) just from the poor photos I've taken is quite the feat, no? I may be new at this, but researched the crud outta frauds versus real... its just frustrating to think I may have been wrong. I didn't buy through ebay, nor online. It came from estate sale from ww2 vet who had a Japanese officer sword as well as other memorabilia from war. Could it be an older replica? One not so obvious as the new ones? And like I said, is it absolutely worthless?

 

Forgive my frustration people.... I'm just a little taken off guard.

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This is a copy, without question. Please look at the workmanship in the nakago (tang). It is very crudely shaped and finished. The kanji are poorly cut and without any meaning in this context. The tsuba as well is very crude.

 

Compare the shaping, filing, and cutting of the kanji to this example by an average WWII era smith:

post-1462-1419680364036_thumb.jpg

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Aphelion (is that your name?),

As you've been told, pretty much every detail on your sword screams "FAKE". Get your hands on books and read & study. Go to sword shows and study. Do your homework first; then try to buy a real Nihonto worth owning.

If it was an old master oil painting that you had purchased with as little knowledge and discovered it to be a forgery, would you be as surprised? This field is as complicated as old masters. Study first or take your lumps.

Grey

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Hi Neil,

You can stick it on ebay and admit it's a fake/copy/repro and see what it brings; you'll get some of your money back.

Yes, a hard learn, but do learn from it. Nihonto can be a fascinating study and great fun but you need to know what you're doing before you spend money.

Grey

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I can't help but feel very frustrated and let down. I know I don't have years of experience, but I did do a ton of research feel I have a good eye for detail and still got burned. :bang:

 

Lesson one: If I find anything new, take pics and get your (you people here seem very knowledgeable) opinions first! Crap. I am so butthurt.... :rant:

 

Lesson two: I need to see and handle real nihonto more often. Maybe then the distinction will become clearer.

 

What a crappy day....

 

Anybody have any suggestions on where to look for starters like myself to look in the future for nihontos? I don't want this experience to discourage me from collecting.

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Neil, have you started a basic library of tried and true nihonto books? Is there a Japanese sword group in your area that you can join? Can you visit periodic shows or museums with nihonto collections. All of this will help make your learning curve less steep...and be careful about putting too much stock in some of the opinions you read here. Read and think critically and remember what you read here usually is just opinion. Many of which are quite credible and many of which are not. Learn as you go and come to trust your own judgement. Welocome to the group and start plowing through the archives here.

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Neil, have you started a basic library of tried and true nihonto books? Is there a Japanese sword group in your area that you can join? Can you visit periodic shows or museums with nihonto collections. All of this will help make your learning curve less steep...and be careful about putting too much stock in some of the opinions you read here. Read and think critically and remember what you read here usually is just opinion. Many of which are quite credible and many of which are not. Learn as you go and come to trust your own judgement. Welocome to the group and start plowing through the archives here.

 

Thanks! I have some books, not many. Suggest any? (don't say Go Rin No Sho, lol). As far as groups, I'll look around. Thanks for the input.

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Hi neil

 

sorry nothing to add about your sword , chinese - 150% for sure.

 

There was a shop that sold Japanese swords and books in Orlando, the owner is Bob Elder not sure if he still buys and sells swords, the shop was called East Coast Martial arts on East Colonel drive i think.

 

it may be of some help !

 

ray

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Hi neil

 

sorry nothing to add about your sword , chinese - 150% for sure.

 

There was a shop that sold Japanese swords and books in Orlando, the owner is Bob Elder not sure if he still buys and sells swords, the shop was called East Coast Martial arts on East Colonel drive i think.

 

it may be of some help !

 

ray

 

Thanks for the help Ray. I'll look into it.

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Neil,

 

You Will find a lot commercial sites and éducational sites in the headers of this site, you Will Know everything after reading and studying.

 

Hada is scarcely/seldom conspicuous on Japanese swords

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Neil,

 

You Will find a lot commercial sites and éducational sites in the headers of this site, you Will Know everything after reading and studying.

 

Hada is scarcely/seldom conspicuous on Japanese swords

 

I appreciate the input. I've been reading like crazy the last couple of days now. I think I also need to see the real deal and handle it, so I have something to compare to in the future. Pictures on most sites and books just don't do enough justice. I don't want to get discouraged, because I really enjoyed the feeling (no matter how short lived) of maybe owning a real nihonto. Sounds cheesy, I know, but even owning new swords (I've bought a sword from mantis swords in the past and also Chris Zhou Katana- I know there is a Japanese word that stands for these types of swords- $600 -$2300 range, but they are still nice I suppose.)can be empowering when held. I'd like to take the next step in owning a real nihonto.

 

I didn't loose to much on this sword and am talking to the original owner in maybe figuring out something as far as refund or refunding some of my money back (crosses fingers) He didn't know it wasn't real either. I hope I can get at least some of my money back....

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You might consider starting with the following three books

 

Samurai Sword: A Handbook

~John Yumato

The Japanese Sword: A Comprehensive Guide (Japanese Arts Library)

~ Kanzan Sato

The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords

~ Kokan Nagayama

 

I think Most of us, have had a let down when we started. Maybe some got lucky and did not. But I would bet most have. Don't get discouraged, just get informed. If you have eye for detail, you have a step in the right direction.

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You might consider starting with the following three books

 

Samurai Sword: A Handbook

~John Yumato

The Japanese Sword: A Comprehensive Guide (Japanese Arts Library)

~ Kanzan Sato

The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords

~ Kokan Nagayama

 

I think Most of us, have had a let down when we started. Maybe some got lucky and did not. But I would bet most have. Don't get discouraged, just get informed. If you have eye for detail, you have a step in the right direction.

 

Thanks :D

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Hi Neil, this site has a links section and in it you will find a stack (5 stacks actually) of reputable dealers and nihonto sites where you can see many pics of real swords. Look closely at the attention to detail on each and EVERY sword. Even crap smiths had pride and would be able to keep a smooth line on their ridges and grooves and edges.

They simply did not and still will not compromise on the asthetic, end of story.

So if what you see on fleabay or in a shop does not have perfect lines, meticulous attention to detail and the aesthetic of symmetry and form then it is to be avoided.

So the advice is to stare long and hard at as many swords and fittings as you can.

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