Help with my Katana

[Jean]

Here is a quick scan of the Nagayama's book giving the definition of Naginata/Nagamaki/Nagamaki Naoshi.

 

Clearly the generic term is Naginata and Nagamaki is describing a kind of Naginata.

 

Nagamaki naoshi is very well described, the tsurikomi is irrelevant in the denomination of Nagamaki/Naginata naoshi:

 

Nagayama writes that Naginata have often distinctive grooves, meaning it is not always the case.

 

The Nihonto world is made of exceptions

[sanjuro]

Jean

 

I accept what Nakayama says, although it doesnt quite do the subject of naginata and nagamaki justice. He describes a naginata as a long hafted sword, which it really isnt. A naginata is a pole arm and a nagamaki is a long hafted sword ( a type of no dachi). Its much like calling a kikuchi yari a long hafted tanto. But this is just semantics. The definition given is fair enough and if he wants to lump naginata and nagamaki together, then since he wrote the book, it is his privilige to do so. So nagamaki is a type of naginata....... Hmmmmm, possibly from a certain point of view. The two weapons are however vastly different. Of the nagamaki I have seen, the blades are much longer than a naginata blade (a real naginata, Nanbokucho or Sengoku Jidai, not the smaller and more curved Edo versions). However, who am I to argue with Sensei Nakayama? :D I'm not about to rush out and buy his book though.

[kusunokimasahige]

Guys, to be absolutely sure you would have to read Nakayama's ORIGINAL Japanese text which here is translated into English.

 

A Halberd is translated by Naginata and Hoko in my Kenkyusha Japanese dictionary, not by the word sword.

Axe would be Ryuu or ono.

 

There could well be a mistranslation of some sort in the Connaisseurs guide.

 

KM

[Jean]

There could well be a mistranslation of some sort in the Connaisseurs guide.

 

No, H-J, you can only make this assessment because you have not the book and that you don't know the translator. You should stop talking about things you don't know.

 

Kenji Mishina is the translator. He has spent years in England, he speaks as well English as you and is Japanese and furthermore one of the top ten polishers in Japan, student of Nagayama ...

 

He knows more about the topic than 99% people on NMB

[kusunokimasahige]

I have the book dont worry about that, and I believe Kenji Mishina knows more than all of us considering the Japanese sword.

 

The thing i put out is that to call a Naginata a long hafted sword wielded in large sweeping strokes does in fact point to a polearm or halberd and not to a nagamaki-naoshi in sword mountings as is discussed here.

 

And about mistranslations, there are scores of those found in translated Japanese literature, where the Pictorial joke hidden in the Kanji of the original text and its underlying humor cannot be translated into English.

 

Every translation subtracts something of the original text.

That is the first thing you learn at University.

 

So i am not discounting Kenji Mishina's translatory capacities or knowledge on the Japanese sword, nor Nakayama sensei's knowledge at all.

 

KM

[Jacques D.]

HI,

 

Have a look on the meaning of nagamaki 長巻 and it seems the term nagamaki naoshi is never used by the NBTHK

 

http://samuraiswords-hawaii.com/id45.html

[kusunokimasahige]

Interesting!

 

Naga(i) long

Maki roll (of silk) winding

 

Maku tie, wind, roll up, tie around.

 

so long wrapping.

 

Naosu: reformed, refined, amend, repair, mended

Naoshi: correction

 

Used dictionary : Nelson. second revised edition. 33rd printint 1990

 

And on the site you posted:

 

http://samuraiswords-hawaii.com/id45.html

 

A Nagamaki Naoshi swordblade which looks nothing like the pictures on the Nakayama book page scanned by Jean.

 

So basically, a Nagamaki Naoshi is an oversized sword with long hilt, and a Naginata is a Halberd.

So would it be ok to assume then if a halberd blade is mounted in a sword mount with a long hilt it would become a Nagamaki Naoshi ?

 

KM

[cabowen]

HI,

 

Have a look on the meaning of nagamaki 長巻 and it seems the term nagamaki naoshi is never used by the NBTHK

 

http://samuraiswords-hawaii.com/id45.html

 

Huh??? It says nagamaki naoshi on both the NBTHK Juyo Nado Zufu entry and on the Juyo kantei sho, both written by the NBTHK....

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Paper says Naginata naoshi 薙刀直し not nagamaki naoshi 長巻き直し

[sanjuro]

HJ

 

So basically, a Nagamaki Naoshi is an oversized sword with long hilt, and a Naginata is a Halberd.

So would it be ok to assume then if a halberd blade is mounted in a sword mount with a long hilt it would become a Nagamaki Naoshi ?

 

No... as a point of fact it would be considered a nagamaki. But that is beside the point. You might want to rethink this a little....... Read up on what the difference between nagamaki and nagamaki naoshi really means (even Nakayama if you must),then have another shot at playing with the big boys. Nagamaki naoshi refers only to an altered blade. Nagamaki refers to a type of weapon which in your words is an oversized sword with a long hilt. The two are not necessarily synonymous, since one refers to kurikomi the other to a style of weapon. I think Jean made this point some time ago.

[Ted Tenold]

Forgive my ignorance, but I have never seen a naginata that didnt have a naginata hi. I have seen swords that do have it but never a naginata without. I have seen and handled nagamaki blades that didnt have hi.

 

Keith, they are infrequent, but do exist. This one is ubu and mumei.

[sanjuro]

Ted.

 

That is a very striking blade! Most unusual, and as Jean says, nihonto is a study full of exceptions. Thanks for posting it. Can I ask if it is papered and to what school?

[Ted Tenold]

Keith,

 

It was never submitted to shinsa to my knowledge. The owner had no interest in doing so. It is a well made blade though.

[Jean]

Ted,

 

Stop making me salivating/dribbling.

[sanjuro]

Jean.

 

Perchance do you share my admiration for this style of blade? The work of the Soshu smiths in the medium of shobu zukuri style have long fascinated me. I have a wakizashi, a tanto and a naginata all in this style. In fact all Shimada school, all sengoku jidai. All I need now is a tachi to make me totally happy. :D

[Jean]

Keith,

 

I love shobuzukuri blades, they are fantastic and stout, my preference goes to shobuzukuri wakizashi. Futhermore Shimada school is one of my favourite. I have a lovely little Sukemune tanto with some Mino influence (some togari in the hamon)

 

Now, when discussing about the blade subject of the topic, my "kantei" on Nagamaki Naoshi was done directly from statistiscs. To have a shortened (or ubu) katana/Tachi in shobu zukuri are against the odds compare to the Nagamaki Naoshi Katana/Tachi.

The blade is most probably suriage despite the Kinpun mei, if not, it does not look Ichimonji and seems on the short side for a Hosho katana, but as we have seen Nihonto is only made of exception

 

In fact, Keith, how many shobuzukuri blade originally katana made have you seen compared to Nagamaki Naoshi katana?

At 98%, each time I see a shobuzukuri katana, it is labeled Nagamaki Naoshi...

[acrual]

 

Unbelievable discussion. I guess the 1st lesson in Nihon-to is, any sword is subject to unlimited discussion? That's what probably makes it so interesting!

 

So if I understand correctly, most people's opinion is changing from Nagamaki Naoshi to shortened (or ubu) katana/Tachi in shobu zukuri?? (did I say that?). Sorry, it is too much material to digest... :?

[sanjuro]

Jean.

 

There seems to be an attitude in the nihonto world that most if not all shobuzukuri blades were originally nagamaki or even naginata blades that have been modified to serve as a sword of either katana or wakizashi type. In fact I suspect that the shobuzukuri style was employed widely during the Sengoku Jidai, and produced exactly as we see them today as katana and wakizashi. The assumption that they are in the majority reshaped or shortened naginata and/or nagamaki is not entirely reasonable. Certainly some blades were altered and serve now in a modified form, but lets face it, of the nagamaki made only a percentage of them were shobu zukuri. Compare the possibility of all of the blades made as nagamaki against all the shobu zukuri blades now labelled as nagamaki naoshi, and the possibility of the numbers just dont add up. Is it possible that the assumption that shobu zukuri blades were in the majority once nagamaki, leads us to outomatically consider them as such particularly if they have an ichimonji nakago jiri? The designations may or may not be correct, and many of them are not papered.

 

In answer to your question, I have seen and handled possibly two dozen decent katana in shobuzukuri form. Three of them were undoubtedly nagamaki naoshi, one possibly, with rather a bad O suriage, and the rest were katana made ubu blades. Interestingly, several were ichimonji nakago and my first thought was nagamaki naoshi, but they were all papered as ubu nakago. The tachi that is the subject of this thread (which has now been hijacked by more than one side discussion), has the appearance of those ubu ichimonji nakago that I have seen rather than the more narrow 'altered' look of the nagamaki naoshi that I have seen. It can be a fine distinction to make, and my experience is of course limited compared to others, and I can only judge by what is within my own experience. If what you say is correct then my experience has been unusual in that I have seen more of the real deal shobuzukuri katana than I have of the nagamaki naoshi type.

 

Both my wakizashi (mumei but papered) and tanto are ubu. The naginata is ubu, totally untouched, with an incomplete original koshirae, signed Shimada Hirosuke (nidai). :D

[nagamaki - Franco]

Or, is it the case that in the presence of such doubt, the classification is simply a default, and all such blades (O suriage, nagamaki naoshi , naginata naoshi, et al) grouped together under the naginata heading?

 

yes, this was one of Ted's points in his post.

 

Also, someone mentioned in one of these posts not having seen a long naginata. If memory serves , (Edit) in Arms & Armour Of The Samurai by Bottomley & Hopson page 44, there is a photo of looooong kamakura period naginata. Ignoring the past when it comes to nihonto is probably most often what gets us into trouble with our thoughts.

[Jean]

In Fact Keith, during the last DTI, I can't remember having seen a Shobu zukuri Katana, but it is not significant. Now if you go through the commercial websites, I am not sure there is a single one.

(originally described as being Katana mei)

I agree with you that shobuzukuri form has been blooming during the 16th Century, mainly in wakizashi.

 

Now this blade, I would not put it in this era but rather in the Nambokucho period, it seems a good blade, taking into account it is a gift in a splendid ito maki no tachi koshirae and that once there was a kinpunmei on it. The hada has suffered and is quite loose but Masame is clealy visible so the high shinogi, I would agree with Ted on the Yamato side.

 

Adolfo,

 

Is it possible to have a picture of the boshi and a picture of the Nakago from the mune machi side?

 

This could be an indication, I say could, because it is not sure as I have seen Naginata Naoshi with kaeri .....

 

Otherwise Shinsa...

 

Keith,

 

were your shobu zukuri katana signed? and which school? I would say Mino and Shimada.

[cabowen]

Since I am the first one to offer the opinion that the blade is a nagamaki naoshi, I will state my reason why: it is simple- the vast majority of blades made in this shape are nagamaki naoshi (not naginata-naoshi). Shobu-zukuri, while rare in wakizashi, is even more so in katana. My experience has been the opposite of Keith's- I have seen very very few original, katana length, shobu-zukuri blades. Keith, you must have a tractor beam to have seen so many ubu examples...

 

My opinion on this blade is based solely on probability and less than optimum photos. Could it be an original, shobu-zukuri katana? Sure. Would I bet on it? No. It needs to be examined in hand for a definitive answer....

[Jean]

Thanks Chris, it was exactly my thought/reasoning

[sanjuro]

Chris, Jean.

 

I wish I did have the tractor beam that Chris suggests. Perhaps the basis of my experience was somewhat unusual, but the shobu zukuri examples I mentioned were almost all in the hands of collectors in various parts of the world, and I encountered them during some extensive travels during the 80's and 90's. I recall them only because one does not see the style very often, and my interest in the style dates back to this same time. Most were Soshu of course, a few were Shimada, two were school of Muramasa. 4 examples of Mino work and as I recall, 3 yamato nanbokucho blades (these yamato were all ichimonji nakago) there was a mixture of signed and unsigned examples. (Even a gimei on an Osuriage nagamaki naoshi of all things )

I have not recently seen an ubu katana shobuzukuri blade, but then again I dont travel much any more and I suspect the vast majority of these blades are now in the hands of collectors since they are without doubt a rarity. My search for a shobuzukuri tachi is going to be a long one I suspect.

 

The sword under discussion here I rather suspect is a good one and since it was given as a gift, the gold mei is not a surprise either, since it was not an uncommon practice on such blades to have them attributed to a famous smith as a mark of respect to the recipient. They are in many cases not to be taken seriously I believe.

More pictures as Jean suggests would be terrific if the original poster can take the trouble to post them. :D

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Below a shobu-zukuri katana

 

 

 

and a nagamaki (suriage)

 

 

[cabowen]

The top photo is not a true shobu-zukuri shape. True shobu-zukuri has the shinogi running to the very tip like a moroha-zukuri.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

It is described as shobu-zukuri 菖蒲造. Maybe author don't know from what he speaks

 

others whom by evidence don't know from what they speak

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/styles.html

 

 

About Naginata and nagamaki

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/naginata.html

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

It is described as shobu-zukuri 菖蒲造. Maybe author don't know from what he speaks

l

 

See Nakahara's description on page 19 of his book.

[Jacques D.]

Hi

 

See Kokan Nagayama on his book page 53. It is not because a man formulates an opinion that he is right; 3 vs 1, i will follow the majority.

 

I have also noticed the blade which is described as Nagamaki zukuri in theYumei koto taikan is described as naginata zukuri in the Mino-tô taikan

[Jean]

Thanks Jaques for this oshigata and here is the second thing that was nagging me:

 

What interests me on this Chikushû Kuniyoshi shobu zukuri blade, is the nakago jiri.. It is not kiri. All Koto shobuzukuri swords I have seen (at 95% Wakizashi - 5% tanto) had (when ubu and at 100%) a nakago jiri which followed the smith tradition.

 

I don't see why a smith forging a shobu zukuri Katana would forge anything else that his usual nakago jiri. (It is the same when the katana is hira , moroha, kiriha zukuri).

 

Should my theory be correct, this means that this sword can be: O suriage or Ichimonji or Hosho (there is a lot of masame in this sword) if ubu. The hada once again is far from being Ichimonji style.

[Jean]

Concerning the definition of Shobuzukuri pattern, I have seen both definitions accepted. Strictly speaking if we are referring to the translation of this term in English (Iris leaf pattern), Nakahara's interpretation is the good one : the central vein of a leaf goes right to its tip.

 

It is also the definition accepted in Dr Stein's website:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/terms/terms.htm