Attibuted as Ko-mihara?

[Jim P]

Hi all, I am looking at this ko-mihara (https://www.aoi-art.com/sword/sale/10480.html ) but am a bit perplexed why the blade if re polished may be judged to Aoe school.and also the blade might be Enju school so we have 3 possible attributions ? what would change it from ko-mihara as the polish is OK. Our ko-mihara is like this one if it was re polished is it possible the attribution would also change ?just trying to understand the attribution and why the maybe,s ?thanks

[paulb]

Well done Jim you have mentioned three of my favourite schools in one mail

I can understand that the possible change in attribution after a polish may appear confusing but it is not altogether uncommon. Repolishing or a slightly different style of polish may highlight features which were not visible in the original condition.

The three you mentioned together with the Rai School which is another which both Enju and ko-mihara are confused with, is that they all have very tight ko-itame hada as a foundation. This also varies within schools so sometimes it is difficult, and very subjective to judge whether it is ko-itame or another variant.

The point is that when it is polished subtle effects may become visible. So for example the difference between Rai and Enju is that utsuri when present in Rai blades tends to be nie utsuri, in Enju it is more likely to be shirrake. Also in Enju an o-maru boshi is more often seen where in Rai it is ko-maru.

For me the stretch from either ko-Mihara or Enju to Aoe is a bit greater, depending on whether it is ko, chu or sue Aoe work. In the first two the combination of ko-itame, mokume and jifu utsuri is very distinctive and differs markedly from the other two. Likewise the shape certainly of ko-Aoe is very different from the ko-mihara blade illustrated.

I think when we read decriptions we tend to think the differences described in Koto work are clear. In fact they are very subtle and it is in the minor detail that differences can become apparent.

[Jim P]

Hi paul, I have come to umderstand that they are very subtle, but what is a bit perplexing is at Juyo Token level I thought we would

get a clearer attribution without the maybe 3 schools It reminds me how much of a hard road it sometimes is.Just have a look at http://www.nihontocraft.com/Mihara_Nihonto.html for Ko-mihara. Its hard to pin down as it has a bit of contradicting information and it seems its hard at the top so what chance do we a the bottom have to work out schools. Is Chu-Aoe, that close to Ko-mihara ?the Chu-Aoe, containing both Bizen and Yamashiro characteristics, is it different from the Yamato influence of Ko-mihara ? and then chirimen-hada is it common in both ? as you can see it gets hard to find your way. Which is the definitive definition of Ko-mihara ? or Aoe,? thanks

[paulb]

Jim,

I am putting together some notes on some of these and by now I was hopingt o have some images of ko-Mihara, Enju and Aoe hada which I could share with you. Unfortunately its going to take me a while to get something that is of any use.

To try and answer some of your points, but my answers are opinion rather than fact:

Chirimen hada is a uniquely Aoe characterisitc more specifically ko and chu-Aoe. Sue Aoe becomes more itame and nagare.

ko-Mihara has its roots in Yamato rather than Yamashiro tradition although there is certainly some Yamashiro influence appearing early in the schools work. Ko Mihara hada is recorded as being extremely beautiful and the examples I have seen confirm that. later Mihara work like so many other schools loses some of the quality.

 

Personal view is I do not think mihara hada is the same as Aoe Chirimen hada. The lack of jifu, any mokume present is not ko-mokume and there isnt the abundance of ji-nie and chickei.

In the article I wrote about Aoe which is in the articles section I described Aoe as made using Bizen material and Yamashiro technique. It is an over simplification but sort of places the work.

As said above I will try and post some comparative images of early Enju, Ch-Aoe and Mihara hada so you can see the similarity and the differences.

 

Regarding the Juyo attribution I think what they are saying is it is a good sword, but there is insufficient detail to determine whether it is one or the other.

The reference to Aoe comes from Tsuruta-san rather than the NBTHK. and I am not altogether sure I understand his thoughts on this one.

[paulb]

Attached some first attempts to show differences between specific examples of Aoe, Enju and Mihara.

The first is a Chu-Aoe blade, the second ko-Enju, the third is actually pared to sue-mihara but I think the hada is much more in line with chu or even ko-mihara, it lacks the whiteness and hard look associated with sue-mihara.

Unfortunately by the time I get them to an acceptable size to show I lose a lot of detail (my excuse anyway) If you want better images drop me a pm with your email address and I will forward them on.

[Jim P]

Hi paul, Thanks for the info, yes its hard to tell from the pics so I will take you up on the offer of better pics. Will PM you, This is a pic of the Ko-mihara hada on our blade what you would expect also can you elaborate on the Yamashiro influence appearing early in the schools work.

[cabowen]

The second picture resembles chirimen hada of the aoe group. The chikei are thick within the mokume and almost look like worms.....

[Jean]

Hada from my late kamakura Enju

[paulb]

Hi Jean

It is very interesting to see the vairiability within a schools work.

I know we have comapred notes before but if you look at your example against mine they are very different. I think it is an important point to remember that even within a well defined school there can be significant differences in appearance.

I have attached another image of the Enju wakazashi mentioned above for comaprison to your own

[cabowen]

Hi Jean

It is very interesting to see the vairiability within a schools work.

...I think it is an important point to remember that even within a well defined school there can be significant differences in appearance.

 

Especially across time periods...

[paulb]

Yes indeed Chris,

I may be being over simplistic but it seems to be a sad fact that quality almost always deteriorates through the life of many schools. I think it certainly true of Aoe, Enju, Senjuin, Shikkake and many others. There are odd exceptions for example in Hizen work where the drop in quality was halted and reversed by the 8th generation but in others it always seemed to fall away after the first few generations.

[John A Stuart]

I think this is especially true in wakiryu like the Mihara temple smiths. John

[b.hennick]

At the Chjicago show I looked at a juyo Enju blade. Before I was told that the blade was Enjju I thought that hada looked like ko Aoe hada. A friend had a great juyo ko-Mihara blade. Large strong, great hada great hamon all in a Ko -Mihara.

[paulb]

Hi Barry,

I am very envious of your experience at the show. I have felt that both ko-Mihara and Enju work has been largely ignored in the west, certainly I have not found much written about either. This is a great shame as both produced some exceptional work. I have lusted after examples of both for some time but other than the wakazashi mentioned earlier have never been successful in buying one.

I wonder if the lack of recognition is due to the poorer quality of later work? sue mihara, like many other Sue pieces seems to lose much of the original features associated with earlier pieces and blend in to the mix of all other schools producing soshu influenced swords.

I still have some way to go regarding the Enju/Aoe association although bow to others experience. From the few examples I have seen in hand and the illustrations availalbe I have always thought that ko Mihara hada had more in common with Rai (especially Ryokai) than Aoe. But as can be seen from the two Enju examples above there is some variation even within well documented schools so the simillarity as described in the NBTHK article,Tsuruta-san and others is understandable (I just havent seen it yet!)

hope you were successful at the show

regards

Paul

[Bazza]

The second picture resembles chirimen hada of the aoe group. The chikei are thick within the mokume and almost look like worms.....

This picture also reminded me of Roger Robertshaw's sandai Mutsu Tadayoshi wakizashi that I saw in Sydney a couple years ago. Quite the most stunning hada I've seen in my years of miserable existence... Does anybody else who saw Roger's sword think the same??

 

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

aka BaZZa.

[Jim P]

Hi Chris, Its interesting that you see a resemblance to chirimen hada as in this sword the description was Ko-itame worked very well, and covered in much Jinie. I am starting to understand that descriptions are subjective to the one making them and picking up on fine minute detail is hard, and is from hard won experience which you have. Paul was just saying that It is very difficult to tell good Enju and ko-Mihara work from Rai pieces, it comes down to some finer minute details. I think you have to see them all side by side if its from photos to get some idea ? maybe we can do that one day with a good view of them for those who don't get the chance to hold them.

Paul I think you are right about not much written about either as most of the books in English have much the same info on Ko-mihara and maybe the lack of recognition is starting to change I have liked sho-shin thoughts on them,

(Ko-Mihara are excellent swords - exhibiting true master-piece quality. Hense Ko-Mihara have always been hearlded and revered works. Ko-Mihara are considered world-class, especially because of their conservative nature.) from sho-shin (http://www.sho-shin.com/sanyo13.htm) but maybe they don't appeal to some as they are conservative but Its good to see that is changing thanks

[cabowen]

In my experience, in general, the hamon in classical rai work is quite different from that seen in Enju and Mihara work...

[paulb]

Hi Chris,

I Probably didnt make it clear but I was commenting more on hada than hamon. Athough having said that and allowing for the variations within both schools I think there is likely some overlap. As there is between Enju and early Hizen blades where I understand the first to third were copying both Rai and Enju work. I have looked at at a Rai Kunitoshi piece alongside an early Enju balde and confess I did not see significant differences, both were in ko-nie deki with a bright nioi guchi in this case there was more activity such as kinsuji in the Enju blade, but I am sure the opposite can also be found.

There are many recorded examples of work originally believed to be Rai being re-assigned to Enju and visa versa. I would have thought if the hamon was so different this would not be a common error. Likewise there would be less emphasis on the boshi of Enju being mainly o-maru if there were already significant differences in the hamon.

What were the significant differences you saw in the examples you mention?

I must confess that as I continue to learn, when we explore detail like this it is never wise to try and be definitive, there are alway exceptions overlaps and contradictions.

Regards

Paul

[cabowen]

While there are many "quiet" Rai blades that resemble Ko-mihara and Enju, I think the "stereotypical" Rai is much more active in the hamon.....Like this Rai Kunitsugu and Rai Kuniyuki:

[nagamaki - Franco]

A link to another excellent example of a Rai sword with some good views of the jitetsu http://www.owazamono.com/SD011.html#grid

[John A Stuart]

Here is a shot of my Mihara tachi, a very fine itame. John

[paulb]

Thanks for the clarification Chris, Yes I agree that works by Rai Kunimitsu and particularly Rai Kunitsugu have a lot more activity and shape in the hamon than I have seen in any example of ko-Mihara or Enju. I think the Rai comaparison is more typically focused on Rai Knuitoshi with his quiet and sophisticated suguha.

an interesting thing to come out of this thread is the ease with which people have found good examples of ko-Mihara work. As I said earlier I think they have been under appreciated for some time.

Regards

Paul

[Jamie]

A stunning Ko mihara was sold on the board last year.

My experience is limited thus far, but it stands out as one my favorites I have seen in hand.

[Grey Doffin]

If it will help, an oshigata of a very good Ko-Mihara.

Grey

ftp://ftp.cpinternet.com/homepage/124_2409.JPG

[John A Stuart]

Grey, that link keeps asking me to log on with passwords etc. John

[Grey Doffin]

Yep; I was afraid of that. The picture I have is too big for posting and I haven't had any luck resizing or linking to it. If any of you would like to see the picture, email me with the link below and I'll send it to you.

Grey

[Brian]

Grey,

Instead of trying to get us to hack into your account via ftp...maybe you should just link the picture instead. :lol:

 

http://www.cpinternet.com/~gdoffin/124_2409.JPG

 

Brian

[Grey Doffin]

Thanks Brian; that's exactly what I was trying to do. Glad I know more about swords than I do about computers.

Grey

[Grey Doffin]

And, I should add, when I bought this sword it was signed Kunimura (Enju) and had saya-gaki to Bitchu Aoe.

Grey

[Jim P]

Hi Grey thanks for the oshigata Grey what is the hada like ,and do you have a photo ? also if some of the other members have oshigata or pics of Ko-mihara or Chu-Aoe blades I would love to see them thanks