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shinshinto katana


jezah81

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Hi Guys,

 

I recently bought a shinshinto bakumatsu katana from ricecracker.com. I just wanted to see other peoples opinions on the sword. I bought it for $6000 U.S, including a new handle blank made for it, which isnt in the photos. Does it appear to be in its original old polish from the 1800's? Does it appear to be full in hiraniku, and most importantly is it worth the money? This is going to be my cutting sword from now on, so any opinions would be appreciated.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Jeremy Hagop

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So, your'e saying it is a damaged blade??

I didn't say it's *damaged* - I wouldn't call "scatched up / out of polish" a flaw per se. But I probably said too much already - after I pointed out the false description of papers that accompanied a Tsuba from ricecracker.com recently, one might get the (wrong) impression that I'm getting on their back.

 

If you're happy with this sword, great. You obviously bought it as a user's sword, and I can't comment on it's usability from some pictures. So,if it cuts well - and for US $ 6,000 it should - that's all that counts. The question if it's worth the money is therefore moot. If you ask whether or not it's a wise investment as an art object, taking it's re-sale value into consideration, we're entering a totally different game.

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I don't see any kunisada in fujishiro's or sato's shinto book from 1700 and up (which doesn't mean much). There are a few big name (jo-saku - sai-jo saku) shinto kunisada. Osaka line smiths. Which your blade I believe is not.

 

$6K is a lot to spend on a cutter. martial arts swords is a korean company that makes excellent semi-production blades. I own a jingum from them that handles and cuts very well. They make Japanese style blades too. All for about $2K.

 

Me personally, I'd be hesitant to cut with an antique. They deserve better I think. The polish looks like its in bad shape (sandpapered like guido mentioned) I'm sure you know what an unevenly sharp edge does to your cuts/sword. I'd also make a new saya as well if you're planning to practice iai. Good luck!

 

mike

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Peter and Guido,

 

I think there are different ways/aims of collecting Nihointo.

 

Do not condemn Jeremy, may he enjoy his sword for years. I am sure it is thrilling for him to practice cutting with a 150 year old sword.

 

Question : is it the right price for a non papered, non polished blade?

 

IMHO, it is too expensive. Never pay this price for a non certified blade and unpolished.

 

FYI, one never knows what can happened after polishing. I bought a kanteisho (NTHK) Mino Tensho Kanetsune blade (for the same price).

After polishing, 2 hagire. :oops: unvisible before polish.

 

The seller took it back (I lost the polishing price). :cry:

 

 

The only advise I can give Jeremy, beware of Hagire while cutting

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There will always be differing opinions on the use of antiques for modern day use, but I think that when you suggest using an antique blade for tameshigri on a Nihonto forum dedicated to the preservation of Japanese swords, then I suspect you are going to get a common view against it. :)

I know there are plenty that do it, but I would be very surprised if it was encouraged here. I personally feel that there are way too many things that can go wrong, and damage the blade. This is aside from the inevitable scratches and damage to the finish that will result. There are better modern swords for this purpose. Not condemning the original poster, just explaining that this is a question that will inevitably lead to counter arguments.

It may only be 100-200 years old now...but in another 200 years? If it has been preserved, it will be there for later generations to appreciate. used for cutting...I expect it will oneday either take too many polishes..or gain significant damage.

 

Generally, it looks like a nice sword that might be on the high side price wise. There are many choices in that price bracket...but you didn't get ripped off. It needs a polish, but is 100% real and authentic. Kept for many more years in good condition, it will be a better deal. Used daily..I expect the value will drop.

 

I do understand what Guido was getting at. Dropping $6K like that for a cutting sword, and then asking afterwards about it, and not knowing much about the condition or suitability sounds a bit..umm..err...strange :)

Not a criticism..just that $6K is a LOT of money for some of us...and I guess we just run through everything in detail before making that decision.

 

Good luck with your choice.

 

Regards,

Brian

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What an interesting topic, one that I had thought about in passing but never contemplated to depth. I would have to say I am in agreement with most of the members of the board. While eating a meal with a 200 year old set of fine silver or using or driving a '63 Corvette gives a one a certain sense of excitement in becoming "one" with history, you certainly wouldn't use the silver for your microwave lunch anymore than you would the car as a primary driver. In perfect condition neither one would be used for their primary function at all.

While it seems very romantic (I think) to cut with antique nihonto I think the reasons elicited here combined with the fantastic article Brian posted show this to be less than a good idea.

Specifically to your situation, I think this is really a neat sword. I believe the somewhat high price is a function of what is a very nice original, unmonkeyed with koshirae and a 30" blade. You say it came with a handle blank but this would still be need to be shaped and wrapped...another 300-400 with menuki, fuchi/kashira. Then there is the saya, which if you use this one will invariably become dinged up in the course of frequent handling and use. It seems like nice work so that would be a shame. Also, although I have no knowledge of iaido or tameshigiri I am wondering if the dangers inherent in using an old blade aren't exacerbated by the fact that it is 30+" as I would think this would place on the lower half of the blade as the fulcrum(your arm) is farther away from the monouchi.

If it were me, I would spring for polish. It looks like there could be alot of nice stuff hiding in there and since you are already in 6000, its your best chance of getting of it should you desire and even if you can't I bet it will still be a knockout blade that you will love looking at. Many people who collect a variety of things have their "show and tell" pieces and use variations of the originals as their "daily driver", you just got your show and tell piece first. Take the advice of this extremely knowledgeable board and find that daily driver. Again, nice sword and "rig", I wish you the best.

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... Guido,

...

Do not condemn Jeremy, may he enjoy his sword for years.

I surely hope he will. And I certainly don't condemn him. I'm not the sword police, he paid for it, it's his property now, and he can do with it whatever he pleases.

 

There are countless Shinshintô (Bakumatsu), and even more Kotô (Sengoku Jidai) that lack artistic and historical value; weapons, not art objects. Just because it's old doesn't make it worthy of preservation.

 

But even if someone decides to use a TokuJû Kanemitsu for cutting, trying to find out why Kanemitsu was rated Saijô-Ô-Wazamono, it's none of my concern. I'm not anytime soon going to travel the world, rescuing Nihontô from abusive or unappreciative owners.

 

But back to the sword in question:

I wouldn't use it for cutting since the blade's integrity can't be properly judged due to it being out of polish. Also, I wouldn't trust the antique mountings to hold up to frequent use.

 

I also wouldn't have bought it as a collectible / investment. A polish will cost about US $ 2,000 (plus some for a new Habaki, Shirasaya, and Tsunagi for the Koshirae). This particular Kunisada doesn't seem to be a recorded smith, and there is no Kanteishô. So, one would have finally spent $ 8,000 on a sword that IMO is maybe worth half that much in full polish, and even that only because it comes with a decent period mounting.

 

The reason why I thought we had a troll on NMB is simply that I couldn't believe someone spending $$$$ for an item that he has little knowledge of. $ 6,000 is quite some money for most people I know, and soliciting opinions *after* liberating the bank account of that sum is something I can't relate to.

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Guest Simon Rowson

Hi Jeremy,

 

I agree completely with dkirkpatrick's comments above which were expressed far more eloquantly than I could ever manage!

 

Just one (possibly silly) question ......is the blade actually 30" in cutting edge? If it is, then, judging by the photos, it has an incredibly long nakago.

 

All the best

Simon

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Thanks to everyone on this forum for taking their time to put in their input. I got in contact with Mike Yamasaki about this blade just yesterday. I inquired about the scratches on the blade, and if they were made by someone applying sand paper. He replied by saying

" If the sword was "sanded", you would see much more severe scratching on the blade, and in most cases you would not be able to see the temperline so clearly. These scratches most likely came from a combination of not wiping the blade correctly, as well as not properly inserting the blade in the scabbard."

 

Also I did ask John Kurata BEFORE i bought the blade, if this blade was suitable for cutting hard targets such as bamboo. This was the reply I got:

"Yes, blade is sharp enough to cut. This blade should be very good for cutting bamboo."

 

After hearing that response, i went on and purchased the blade, as this was my main reason for buying it in the first place.

 

Once again, I wish to thank all the members of nihontomessageboard for their time and patience with me.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Jeremy Hagop

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Guest Simon Rowson

Hi Jeremy,

 

I'm sure that, if your blade has no hagire or major defects, it can be used for

cutting hard targets such as bamboo

as John Kurata says.........however, so could a machete from a garden centre.

 

The difference is that the machete has no historical importance. It has no chance of, say, ever having been worn by a member of the Shinsengumi or Ryoma Sakamoto's entourage.....as has a Bakamatsu jidai katana (with it's original koshirae no less).

 

Please think long and hard before you do something with an antique (that has already survived 150 years intact) that could lead to it's irreversable damage or destruction.

 

Best wishes,

Simon

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A few rules of thumb seem to emerge :

 

- never buy an unsigned, non certified, out of polish sword for more than 2k (too risky) (unless being an expert but even ...)

 

- If you buy a tameshigiri antique sword, find an old sue koto Mino blade, thousands without any artistic value were made, they are as all Mino swords reliable, very sharp and not at all expensive

 

Guido,

 

It was not a criticism, we have all our part of dream.

 

For exactly 600$ more I bought an Hitatsura (shortened, with some coarse hada) certified koto Tsunahiro blade .....

 

 

 

As we say in France, all tastes are to be found in Mankind ...

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Just a little observation on the nakago. If you look at the pics from the link you can see on the ha surface where the tsuba rests the metal is shiny and worn. I am suspecting that this has been in use for cutting and that there might be some play in the fit of the tsuba as if this had not been used for at least 150 years that shouldn't be there -- it should be the same rust as the rest of the nakago. Perhaps it would also explain the condition of the polish as cutting targets quickly leads to scratches. Just doing some Sherlock Holmes work here but it would make sense.

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Guest Simon Rowson

Once again, I think you're absolutely spot on Pete (sorry, "Sherlock").

 

There is something slightly odd about those bright spots on the nakago and the "scratches" on the blade look more like the foundation stages of a polish rather than sandpapering. The tamishigiri practicioners I know in Japan go back to the togishi for a basic touch-up polish every 6 months or so and the results, whilst better than this sword, are still no art-polish.

 

By the way, why has this blade been referred to on a few posts as "mumei" or "unsigned".........it is signed "Kunisada" isn't it?

 

Simon

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The nakago is signed "kunisada". I have no idea why it has been referred to as mumei. Even if the both of you are correct about the shiny spots on the nakago, it wont be hard to make the tsuba fit tight again. I also know of many tameshigiri practitioners in Japan who buy shinsakuto that are a dull greyish sort of colour, and no real hamon. Only put through the first stage of the polish such as you described. That is another reason why i wanted to purchase this blade, because i wont be damaging an art polish. The length of this blade also attacted me to it.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Jeremy Hagop

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I can definitely see you point of view, especially if you are around six feet tall. Many swords are really too short for we 'taller' western types. Not having it in hand it is difficult to ascertain but it looks as if the 'scratches' are in the monouchi region only which would lend credence to my thought that it has been used of late for practice. Also it has a bit of that 'Mino' look to the hamon and they were known for their sharpness. I would have to say enjoy! Thirty inches with original koshirae -- nice find.

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About the mei as I am far from being a specialist, till it is papered one day, I shall remain very cautious and state that "Kunisada" is inscribed on the tang.

 

BTW, can we say that a gimeï is a meï?

 

It is very interesting especially in auctions :

 

That is the difference between :

 

Katana signed by Nobukuni

 

and

 

Katana signed Nobukuni :D :D :D

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Guest Simon Rowson

Even if it's papered Jean, it still all depends on the sometimes random guesswork of the so-called "experts"!

 

(Please see my other thread about "experts" to see why they are not my favourite breed at the moment. :evil: )

Regards,

Simon

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Thank you once again for participating in this discussion. I have attached another photo of the habaki. If you look carefully, you can see that the blade near the habaki is also a dull greyish colour as though its seen only the first stage of the polishing process. The hamon isnt all that visible unless you look really closely. BTW, I am just over 6 foot tall, that is why i needed a monster of a blade! :D

 

Kind Regards,

 

Jeremy Hagop[/code]

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Heres your pix, i cut it in half and reduced the size, did you take the photos? If so well done, nice lighting on the top set, i think to help with the kante of this if you were to remove the fittings and show the area under the habaki where the rust on the nakago turns to polish would help us alot.

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Hi Simon,

 

I am quite astonished at what you state....

 

I was thinking that so called experts could at once make the difference between a mei and a gimei.

 

Attribution is another matter, for a mumei blade, as you can get as much attribution as experts .........

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Guest Simon Rowson

Hi Jean,

 

I was astonished as well!

 

I obviously like to think that Yoshikawa sensei and the NTHK were right but who knows..... maybe the NBTHK were right and my sword is a phoney?

 

I don't know how many blades are put in for both group's shinsas but such a radically different result shows at least one of these organisations to be occasionally incompetant.

 

Simon

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